The 8-size profile plate in the image below appeared in the 1885 Waltham parts catalogue. The 6-size profile plate next to it does not seem to have appeared in any of the Waltham parts catalogues. Between the issuance of 1885 catalogue and issuance of the next KNOWN catalogue (1909) the 6-size profile plate came into and then went out-of use. To pin down the earliest appearance of the 6-size profile plate it is necessary to check individual mechanisms. Thus far, the earliest serial number on which this plate was used is serial number 3070242. Consequently, I would ask that people please check any 6-size Waltham mechanisms in their collections or parts boxes for a serial number before 3070242 which has this profile plate. Thanks for your help.

Hi Mark,
I've got #3016709 with that plate profile. The ser. no. list shows it as an Ellery but it is signed "A.W.Co./ Waltham" on the dial and "American Waltham Watch Co. on the mov't. It is a bag-o-bones in a parts tin and not photogenic but, if you need a pic I'd be happy to oblige.

Also, I see it is listed as a model 73. There seem to be a number of earlier runs of 73s. Mine came from a run of 9,000.
-Cort

Cort;
Thank you s-o-o very much! Photogenic or not, please sent a picture. Trying to establish the earliest appearance of this profile plate is a lot like trying to hold onto an eel. The problem arises from the fact that the earliest 6-size model 1873 mechanisms were manufactured with a 3/4 plate which is documented in the 1885 catalogue. To make matters worse, neither the Gray Book nor the Ledgers differentiate between the 3/4 plate and the profile plate. The question then, is when did the profile plate first get employed. Again, thanks; your contribution takes me one step closer.

Did I say unphotogenic? I meant it looks like it got beaten with an ugly stick!
-Cort

It might clean up eventually...
The watch ser. no. is stamped and marked in all the requisite places.
-Cort
p.s.- The mainspring came out in 17 pieces .

Cort;
I do not know about an ugly stick, may be wet fish. I have seen worse, but repair/clean-up will be quite a task. Anyway, thank you very much; your example is very helpful as it reveals a jump of over 53,000 serial numbers and seriously pushes back the profile plate's implementation. By-the-way, is that a lever slot I see on the pillar plate?

Mark,
I agree, "wet fish" seems more likely.
It is lever set but the slot you are pointing to is for the spring that tensions the rocker bar to the winding position. The remains of the spring can be partially seen in the first picture, under the third wheel.

So, are you saying that some of the other earlier runs, also designated as model 73 in the ser. no. index, may actually represent the earlier non-profile plate? If that is the case then shouldn't we also be looking for an example of earlier 3/4 plate version with the highest serial number too? Was there any overlap period?
-Cort

This is probably of no interest since its serial number is a million plus higher than that of the previous post; I sold the movement to Sheila some time back.

Actually, John. Your (or Sheila's) movement can be of interest as it helps bracket the switch from the large escape wheel (Cort's example) to the small escape wheel (yours -- note the different position of the escape wheel hole in the plate). At least in the gray book, which is noted for errors, the ones with the large escape wheel are listed as 1873 models while those with small escape wheels are listed as 1889 models.

I took a look though my parts boxes for the highest ser. number I could find on the regular 6 size 3/4 plate and came up with #2933768.

Weird they didn't change the model number when they changed the plate design.

I didn't have any of the profile plate version that had the smaller diameter 'scape wheel with a ser. no. lower than the one John posted. I'll keep my eyes open for them now that I know what they are. (:
-Cort

Cort;
Actually it is not so weird that Waltham did not use a new model number. During the time period involved (mid-to-late 1880s) a new top plate did not automatically signal a new train layout (or other major alteration) that required the use of a new model number. It was not until about 1900, when the Record of Watches Made by the American Watch Company came into prominence, that a new top plate design became more closely linked with a new model. It was NOT an officially standardized form, but gained in practice as an easily observable 'shorthand' which announced the mechanism as being a particular, or new, model. This particularly troublesome profile plate does not appear in any known Waltham parts catalogue, but has become linked to the 6-size model 1889 which is incorrect. This profile plate was in use several years before the first model 1889 was ever produced! When it came into being, however, is a devilish question.

John;
What Jerry is saying is of particular importance as the large-to-small escape wheel change did signal an altered layout and together with its pendant setting system was named by Waltham as a new model - the model 1889.
Cort;
In answer to your question about the pre-profile plate 1873 we know from the Waltham parts catalogue of 1885 what it looked like. It is a 'shrunken' version of the 1873 8-size 3/4 plate (image below). I am afraid, however, that I do not have an answer for you regarding the identity of the mechanism with highest serial number on which the 3/4 plate appeared, or if it overlapped in usage with the profile plate. If you are interested in pursuing the matter further, I have a PDF document named Emerging from the Shadows: The Waltham 6-size Model 1873M which can be accessed either from here or the Technical Library forum.

Cort;
Your question about overlap use of the full ¾ plate and the profile plate sparked my curiosity. I no more have a definite answer now than I did previously, but I may have narrowed the search field.

Your serial number 2933768 is recorded as having come from a run of 2,000 Seaside grade mechanisms (2933001 – 2935000) that were produced between 02.01.1886 and 06.30.1886. If I understand you correctly, it is a full ¾ plate mechanism. If so, I would love to see a photo of it, even if it is in pieces .

Chronologically, two serial number runs, 3010501 – 3010900 (05.01.1886 to 02.28.1890) and 3015001 – 3019000 (05.01.1886 to 12.31.1890), are the most likely to contain an overlap use of the full ¾ plate and the profile plate if such an occurrence took place.

Between serial numbers 2935000 and 3010501 there was one run of model 1873 6-size mechanisms, but it did not begin production until November of 1886. Between serial numbers 3010900 and 3015001 there were six more runs of model 1873 6-size mechanisms, but none of the runs began production before August of 1886. In other words, earlier serial number examples may exist, but they were likely not produced until after the May 1886 run which includes your serial number 3016709.

Clear as mud, right? The upshot is that, chronologically, your serial number 3016709 is one of the earliest profile plate examples. If (big word) an early production plate overlap occurred it would most probably be represented in one of the two runs which I cited above.

Mark,
I will get the pic to you shortly. I like these sorts of challenges! At our local mart today I spotted a box of 6 and 8s mov'ts. I turned them all over but didn't find any useful numbers.

On a similar vein, I had a Waltham Bond St. 14s in it's original nickel hunter case on my table today.You'd think I was trying to spread the plague. It occurred to me that, despite the common-ness of this watch, finding one working is becoming very uncommon. They are seen as "box lot filler".

I praise your effort on the 6 and 8s watches. The market driven aspect of our hobby sometimes leaves the lower grades behind as roadkill.
-Cort
p.s.- I wrote this post a bit more elegantly about a 1/2 hr. ago. My computer is crashing regularly so this is a quick redo. <(';')>

Cort;
“Road-kill Watch Sizes” May I borrow that phrase? It is very appropriate. Come to think of it, I have never seen a 14-size watch for sale – or a 10-size for that matter. I am especially surprised by the 14-size. The Waltham model 1884 was both sophisticated and robust. Thanks for checking the 6s and 8s in the mart today. Some of those 6-size mechanisms may have been size converted from 8-size models. To my knowledge there is no fast and easy way to identify them.

I thank you for the compliment regarding 6-size and 8-size movements. The smaller models appear to have more ‘lose end’ questions to investigate which tend to give us an interesting peek into the industry’s manufacturing world.

I am sorry to hear that your computer is giving you such a hassle. I hope that the problem is caused by something minor that can easily be rectified.

Mark,
Here you go.
-Cort

Cort;
Thanks for the photograph. It may be of interest to know that, chronologically, this particular serial number is possibly from one of the earliest of 13 runs of the 6-size 1873 mechanisms that were not size converted from the 8-size model 1873. (Sneaky those 8-size mechanisms). Again, thanks.

Mark,
Actually, I do find it interesting. I have,perhaps, 15 or so Walthams of this size and from this era. It is impressive to me that, from this small pool of watch bones I seem to have garnered many titles; lowest no. example of this and highest no. of that. While I am enjoying all the fame (easy restaurant reservations etc.),I am aware this will all come to an end when other folks look at their piles of stuff and find numbers that surpass mine.'Til then I shall bask.

I am beginning to appreciate how many nuances that can be explored regarding these Walthams too. While looking for examples that met your requests I noticed some other changes that occured over the years. There are male/female stem variations as well as lever set variation. I have one gilt 7J. Ellery with steel bushings on the top plate.
I am grateful that someone is looking into all this and happy to help when I can.
-Cort

Cort;
Long may you bask! Parts boxes can be like treasure chests. It only makes good business sense for manufacturers to have developed new systems (like pendant setting) on less expensive and/or smaller models. Once perfected, the systems could be installed on the more expensive, prestige mechanisms with greater confidence. The less expensive movements, however, which find a resting place in a parts box, can yield valuable ‘snapshots’ of development. I appreciate your help; thank you.