hey guys, when a movement is marked unadjusted what does that mean as far as performance?

Chris it basically means, when dealing with older watches, that the movement never underwent the fine adjustments to make it a good timekeeper in all 5 positions. Since railroad watches were carried in pockets and had to keep good time whether face up or face down or in any position the companies spent time trying to achieve that. That extra time and the higher quality workmanship and material cost more money and that is one reason railroad pocket watches cost more than unadjusted watches from the same company. Unadjusted does not always mean a watch will be a poor time keeper. If you talk to many collectors, including myself, it sometimes happens that a 7 jewel basic watch is an excellent timekeeper while a poorly maintained high grade railroad watch is a poor timekeeper after years of abuse. I am sure that Dave Abbe or Chris Able can do a much better job of explaining this to you but this is a start. Best wishes.

Deacon (Richard) said it all about watches "made in USA". I have heard that some Swiss imports which seem quite accurate were marked "unadjusted" only because that was a lower inport duty (in the USA).

For those interested in the nitty gritty details of the "Swiss fakes" issue, markings on movements, duties on imported watches, prevailing wages in the U.S. watch industry, etc., there is a historical resource available for free download on Google Books which contains a treasure trove of industry information -- although it comes in the rather dry form of Congressional testimony and affidavits.

[Go to Google Books and search for "Metals and Manufacturers of Metals," Hearings before the Committee on Finance of the United States Senate on H.R 18642 (1912)-the watch good stuff around pp 900-1000 or therebouts]

In 1912 the Senate Finance Committee was hearing testimony on a bill to beef up U.S tariffs and marking requirements to protect American watch manufacturers from cheap imports which were flooding the country at that time, often bearing false or misleading markings designed to deceive both customs officers and consumers. They brought in major industry players to testify.

Based on a 1909 law, duties had been imposed on imported watches in the form of an "ad valorem" tax-- i.e., the amount of duty was directly tied to the reported value of the watch, and specific marking requirements were imposed. Importers immediately started evading the duty by under-reporting the value of their watch movements in Customs, and markings on movements could be and often were manipulated or altered after import. Another common subterfuge was to disassemble the movements, import them as "parts" and "materials," which didn't legally have to be marked, and then reassemble the movements in New York sweatshops at a cost of 20-30 cents per watch.

Here are some other interesting facts and claimed facts which witnesses bought out in the 1912 Senate hearings:

--wages paid by U.S watch manufacturers around 1912 were 3X higher than wages paid by Swiss manufacturers.

-- Swiss facilities making the so-called "Swiss fakes" were often owned or controlled by American importers. (They didn't call it job out-sourcing back then, but it was the same principle, I guess).

--A 17J adjusted watch cost at least three times more to make than a 17J unadjusted watch, owing to the labor required. At retail, a fully adjusted watch could sell for up to 10x as much as an unadjusted watch.

-- markings on Swiss movements were often added or changed after they came through Customs. Example: "7 Jewels" could easily be turned into "17 Jewels."

Dave is correct that a watch movement marked "unadjusted" was probably a Swiss import marked to qualify for a lower duty rate. (Why else would anyone want to advertise their product's inferiority?)

-Retailers liked to sell Swiss watches because the profit margins were higher. For American watches, standard grades and published price lists made it hard for retailers to apply big markups. A consumer would know, for example, if the exact same Waltham Vanguard was available across town for $3 less. For unknown/unmarked Swiss movements, a jeweler could add impressive markings and cases and consumers were more easily persuaded to pay premium prices for cheap goods.

- In 1912, over 60% of employees at Waltham Watch Co. were women.

Interesting stuff.

Cheers,
Dennis

On the "un-adjusted" Swiss movements the ones produced as the American pocket watch companies were dying off in the 50's and 60's were marked "unadjusted" to get by the import tariff that was in place at the time. The later Swiss watches were a bit different breed than the earlier Swiss fakes which were basically made for deception. Waltham, Elgin, and Hamilton had some Swiss made movements that were very good time keepers. Elgin imported basic movements, did some finish and casing at the plant in SC and some of the grades sold will keep RR time when serviced and adjusted properly. Actually the two first movements Elgin used were made in France, grades 657 and 755 but both are mostly found in typical 10K gold case marked "cased and timed by EWC". The later grade 857 and 956 were Swiss movements but all were 17j pendant sets and all were marked unadjusted. Waltham was probably the first to move to adapt to a market that was dying by creating a Swiss Waltham company to produce parts for the US Waltham watch production. Elgin tried to adapt by moving out of the huge factory to a low cost factory in SC but that only slowed the death of the company.

The earlier Swiss movements were basically cheap watches meant for total deception much like fake Rolex watch made in China today. The French and Swiss movements made in the 50's and 60's were clearly marked on the lower part of the dial and on the movement itself with no intent at deception but the "unadjusted" marking was intended to get past the import tax on "adjusted" movements in place in that time frame.

On the original question performance of unadjusted watches. To watch companies to adjust a watch added labor cost but even on basic unadjusted 7 jewel pocket watches Elgin had a specification that these grades had to be within.

In many cases the parts of an unadjusted 7j will interchange with an adjusted lower cost 17j grade.
Some people will tweak a 7j watch to get it to run withing RR specifications and some 7-15j grades will do it when cleaned and regulated properly.

Then there are some 19-21j watches that even when cleaned and regulated would be lucky to beat a sun dial in accuracy because of past hack fixes, abuse and a great deal of wear and tear.

Claude I think what you said about poor, or as I call it blacksmith work is absolutely on point. I sometimes carry a 7 jewel 18s Hampden that probably set unused for the last 100 years. In fact there is only 1 set of jewelers marks in the plain nickle case. My Hampden is except for the cleaning like it just left the factory and it is an excellent timekeeper. I recently had a beautiful Waltham 16s Maximus that had suffered major blacksmith work and will never be useable because of what some fool did. It seems to me that good repair work is often more important than 3,4,5,or 6 adjustments.

thanks guys i now have a greater understanding of the unadjusted movement, thank you. I recently aquired a Waltham p. w. with an unadjusted Swiss movement which I was surprised to see.I knew you guys could clue me in .I really enjoy visiting our IHC club website as it is always educational and interesting.

By the time the 60's rolled around most French or Swiss watches were using invar type mono-metallic balance wheels and invar type hairsprings so as a result they were not affected by heat and cold. By this type even the 17j lower cost Elgin, Hamilton and Watltam grades were also using the invar type alloys so pretty much by default they were adjusted to heat and cold.