Hi all,
What is the difference between a Sangamo and a Sangamo Special, other than the production dates.
Also which would be the more desireable of the two.
I have just purchased a Sangamo 21j 6 position watch, which looks like it could likely need a new dial, are they the same dials as a Bunn Specs. of the same manufacture years ?
Also is this a Getty Mdl 5, and what is the damaskeening pattern?
Thanks for info on this watch.
Bill

Bill,

All Sangamos were either Model 4 (Hunter) or Model 5 (Open face) and were of the Getty configuration. Model 8 (Hunter) and Model 9 and 10 (open Face) were Sangamo Specials. Some of the Model 10's and all of the Model 13's were 17 size.

Both the Sangamo and Sangamo Special were considered to be some of the Illinois Watch Co.s finest and were all railroad approved at the time.

Only a dial from another Getty model will fit your watch, a nice looking "Bright Spot" movement by the way. The dial you would be looking for is a Gothic style Arabic numeral marked Illinois Watch Co. in Old English lettering.

Can you post a picture of your dial?

Check out this post for an example of the dial.

Steve

Thanks Steve,
here is a pic of the dial.
I noted the hands are the same as the pic of Mike Hodges 23j Sangamo and he believes they are wrong hands, I think this is all original, but have not yet got it in my hands yet.
Bill

As much as the Sangamo Specials appear all to be 23 jewels, and the Sangamo are 21 jewel, which is the more collectable? The finishing on the Sangamo seems to be far superior, as there is little damaskeening on the specials.
Bill

Hi Bill,
Sangamo's were made in 19, 21, 23, 25, and 26 Jeweled models. Sangamo Special's were made in 19, 21, and 23 Jeweled models
It was all about an earlier time and production profits. The later in time we go the more craftsmanship was lost or taken away from the watches that we collect today. Production and profits was very big on the list of things to accomplish for the owners of the watch companies and 95% of any other manufacturing process in our very great USofA.
It's called a "lost art" today. But in reality it's more like all about "corporate greed". That has brought us to where we are today, and where we need to go back to.

regards,
bb

Thanks Buster,
Which brings me to the original question is one more collectable than the other, or is it all in the eye of the beholder ?
Bill

Bill,

Tuff question

If you wanted to collect each of the Sangamo's & Sangamo Special's, some are a lot scarcer & rarer than others, that's for sure

It may just be that one just wants a single Sangamo to say he has one. In that instance I would go for a 21J Sangamo. If one wanted a Sangamo Special, a nice 21J Sangamo Special would be nice.

I would suspect it boils down to what an individual wants and how big his pocketbook is for sure
regards,
bb

A couple months ago I got my first Sangamo which is an older model than Bills. The case was too new so it ended up in a South Bend case that seems period correct, looks O.K., and has the lever slot in the proper place. The minute and seconds hands also had to be changed and a broken screw replaced. William White installed a crystal and the watch has been my daily used timepiece. Any information on this watch will be helpful as I do not have access to an Illinois Blue Book.

RR

Sangamo serial # 1608408

I have this beauty which is a "dupe" from my collection on eBay right now. While I personally favor the Getty Sangamo, the later Model 9 and up Sangamo Specials with a jeweled Motor Barrel were probably a better use of the Jeweling.

Nice watch Richard! I have always like those.

I show your number to be a 16s model 5 lever set open face made in 1902. It shows they were made from 1902 to 1904 with 5 runs & only 530 made.

It shows it should be the bright spotted 3rd pattern, adjust to temp & isochronism & 6 positions, ruby jewels in gold settings, gold balance screws, polished gold train wheels with rounded spokes. With a double sunk enamel dial with Illinois Watch Co. in old English.

Yours appears to have been from the second run of 140.

Tom

Bill time you came home! Leave some for the rest of us. Nice find, and good hunting.
Walter

Gentleman,
Thank you for the helpful information.
Rich

Once again some great info on Getty's. My Favorite Illinois 16s movement.

I'm with you Getty's are my favorite. This is the watch that is overlook and hopefully will get the it deserves.

Everyone here,
I have to bring this back to the forefront again,extolling the never ending amazement and enjoyment of belonging to IHC185. When I first started this topic, and we were going through the correctness of my watch, our leader Lindell mentioned to me how the watch appeared correct, but the dial, crystal etc. were in pretty rough shape. He stated that there would likely be some problem in finding another correct dial, and kind of offered to repair mine at N/C. Well I sent the watch down to him complete, as my ability to remove the hands and dial would have no doubt been a disaster. Lindell repaired this dial his way, and also replaced the crystal at N/C. This watch now looks really very good, and I am so pleased to have a good looking, correct watch in hand. This club over the years has helped so many of us whom are challenged when repair work is neccesary, and really just wish to collect, the help of all the members is overwhelming, with their knowledge and the quick and good responses to any question, dumb or other, repeated prior or not. Without doubt the best club in the Horology area of any of them.
Thank you IHC 185 and all the members without fail, and an extra Big Thank You, Lindell, for a excellent job, extremely well done.
Thanks,
Bill

Guys, I have a Sangamo 21 jewels S#1567124. I do not have an Illinois Blue Book, but would like to have any information about it that you can give me. Thanks

I also have a question on Sangamo Specials.I've seen the ads in reprint for them, and they are called 16S, I know the Getty model Sangamo (which is a whole different watch) is standard 16S, but the bridge-model Sangamo Special is supposed to actually be 17S.Is the pillar plate diameter enough bigger to stop it from fitting a 16s case?I know some came in cases that look just like a 1st. model Bunn Special case.I really like those Gothic-style Sangamo Sp'l. dials.What a beautiful RR watch!Thank you, Ted.

Hi Gary,
If my ability to read the Blue Book is right here goes,
Ser# 1567124, 16s Open Face Model 5This was in a run of 600, ca: 1898-1905.
Temp, Iso and 6 pos. Getty Mvmt.
Gothic Dial with "Illinois Watch Co."
I'm sure that lots with more knowledge will elaborate further, and remedy any mistakes I might have made.
Bill

Bill

Looks like you got it all correct. I could add that it should be from 1901 & there were a total of 3500 made in 11 runs from 1897-1902.

Some runs were also marked Montgomery Ward & Co. & others Paillard Watch Co.

Serial# 1567124

also should have a GT with rounded spoke wheels and a DSD in Old English and should be the gold inlaid ribbon (second pattern) damaskeening like the one pictured below;

Ted: That is correct,the pillar plate was slightly larger to accommodate the larger dial and they were factory cased. They WILL NOT fit a standard 16sz case.

regards,
bb

Thanks, Buster.It doesn't make a whole lot of sense to make that highest grade Illinois an oddball size.Would have been hard to recase it later on,like many railroad watches were.Take care, Ted.

here is my 23 j ribbon sangamo