Heres a question that came to our web site, I really can't answer this mans question, especially about the 23J Waltham Ball.
Shugart gives it a 5 star rating, that means "rarest", in his book several years ago it ment "less than 10 known to exist. If any of us can shed some light on any part of his letter to me I would appreciate it. Here goes.
Thanks, Jack

""I have a 16s Waltham Ball (has the Waltham Ball regulator), serial number
B060778 (which according to the books that I have this serial number was
assigned to the 23J Waltham Ball), says "Official Standard", has the
engraved gold (gold seal) "RR", has "Ball & Co Cleveland O" and has 17
Jewels.

I thought the "Ball and Co." was used early in Ball's history and was only
used on 18s watches. True or was it used on 16s watches also? In all the
books that I have (limited number) I was able to find a similar watch from
what is billed as a 1902 Ball Co Factory catalog which describes a similar
watch as a new thin model 3/4 plate 16s, 17 jewels, Sapphire pallets, Ball &
Co, and though I can't see the pic that clearly it does appear to have a
serial number B0607__.

Do you think this is simply a run of numbers that they took for the 17J?
I've never seen a 16s 23J Waltham Ball and I have no idea how many of those
400 numbers (B060701-B061100) they actually used for 23J. Do you have any
idea how many they made? Can you tell me anything definitive about this?
Thanks for any info.""

Jack -

According to the serial number lists I have seen, this was Waltham's first Official Standard run and I have had two watches from this run ... one in the B060700's and one in the 800's.

Both of these were 16 size, 17 jewel, pendent-set, Official Standards marked "Ball & Co." on the dial and movement. I have also seen a few other similar 17J PS Official Standards from this run.

I believe the "Ball & Co." marking may have survived into a few later 16 size runs as well, but it did not last long. Maybe one of our other members can better identify where it ended.

And as for the 23J Waltham-Ball, if memory serves me correctly isn't there a photo with serial number of one of these in Shugart's book?

Fred

Thank you Fred, this whole end of the Ball spectrum can be very confusing. Any further information will be appreciated.

Not a lot of information on these, Jack.

Ed Ueberall and Kent Singer's Railroader's Corner article in the August 2002 Bulletin briefly mentions the 23-Jewel Ball-Walthams. Their only reference to..."a few 23-jewel watches made in the first run"... fits with the picture Fred referred to and five-star listing on page 156 of the "Complete Guide to Watches" 2004 Edition. I'm intrigued with your guy's..."according to the books that I have this serial number (B060778) was assigned to the 23J Waltham Ball"... and the source of his information. None of the references I've checked appear to indicate that.

Your questioner reports he has B060778 which is a long way from B060915 the 23-jewel shown in Shugart's watch guide. In fact it's actually far closer to one in my collection and the two are essentially similar in design. The one I have is B060713 and I can tell you it's 17-jewel, Official Rail-Road Standard, Pendant-Set, from 1899 just as it appears in the records. The markings on both movement and dial reflect "Ball & Co. Cleveland, Ohio" as the 18-size Ball-Hamilton examples from that same time-frame do. Hope at least a portion of this information is of help.


I feel lucky to have the thirteenth 16-size Official Rail-Road Standard...

Heres the reply we got from our posted information, Thanks Fred and Lindell

I've read some of the information posted and have found it helpful. It was especially good to hear that someone else had a similar watch in this number range that was just as mine. In reference to the statement:
"according to the books that I have this serial number (B060778) was assigned to the 23J Waltham Ball"
The only reference I had that was very serial number specific is the 1976 Roy Ehrhardt Pocket Watch ID and Price Guide, page 36. It has an entry for year 1899 Waltham Ball serial numbers range B060701 - B061100 as 16s, 23j, OS.
The only 17J pendent set Official RR Standard watches referenced in the article (including the one you sent in pic) are in that 400 number range--along with the 23J Waltham Ball pictured in the 2003 guide that says that 23J is # B060915. Just another time of great change for Ball I assume.
Thanks again for the information and I at least have a 16s with Ball & Co.
BTW, the watch I have has Ball Watch Co on the dial and was most likely changed during the past 105 +- years.
Clayton

Clayton needs to join!

Hi.

I was looking through the 1979 Ehrhardt guide, in reference to this question. There was one 16s 21 jewel watch, but it had the (grade?) number 999B and the serial number 1B6479; and another 16s with the grade (?) 998B and 21J without any serial number.

The great preponderance of Balls pictured are by Hamilton. I wondered if this represented the relative number of Balls by different companies. There were several Hampdens, one or two Howards and a Seth Thomas, but I saw no Walthams at all. Is there a different overall representation of companies in Ball's output? Also, is there anything that explains the Ball company watches in detail (not just through pictures or examples)?

Jessica

Good points Jessica,

Both the 998E and 999B were much later 16s watches, and yes they were manufactured by Hamilton. The very first 16s Ball Watches were produced by Waltham in 1899. In the two images above you'll see the thirteenth blocked from that run of four hundred. There would be Ball-Waltham 16s watches produced for the next two decades.

A great source of information on Ball Watches is in a four part "Railroaders Corner" in the June, August, October and December 2002 Bulletin compiled by Ed Ueberall and Kent Singer. That would be an excellent starting point on these fascinating watches. For our newer members who might not have the articles, let me know and I'll be happy to send you a photocopied set.

The 2004 Edition of Cooksey Shugart's "Complete Guide to Watches" has a storehouse of information in the Ball Watch Company section, pages 150 to 160 inclusive. There you will find good references to all the various Ball Watches, divided by the makers names.

Here on our Chapter 185 Discussion Site, try our "Find or Search" feature which is a tab near the top of this page. Typing in "Ball Watches" brings up five full pages of information you may find of interest.

The lore of Webb C. Ball and his products continues to grow. Today the man and the wonderful watches that flowed from his enterprises are among the most highly prized by collectors. Ball never actually built watches, all were made to his exacting specifications by the major companies and every one is worthwhile. In the image below, the Superior Road "Ball Building" taken in the 1909 era.

Hope this gets you and others started,

Lindell


Early Ball Watches were cased and timed at their own facility in Cleveland, Ohio...