My collection is heavy with Elgins and I have managed to collect both of these up-jeweled grades, 166>266 and 164>995, the grades 164/166 were both full plate LS 17j watches up-jeweled to 21 jewel versions. Both of these grades were produced in quantities of 1000 or less so they don't show up often. I will post some pictures of mine but I wondered if anyone else had an example of this grade to see what the variations were.

Hi Claude,Since you are somewhat of an Elgin collector,maybe you can help me.I have an Elgin,18s,17 jewel grade 227,model 5.I know there were only 6000 made.Would this be considered rare?I'm just looking for more info.Thanks.Regards.Norm

Norman I guess we could start a huge debate what "rare" is but I tend to think anything under 10,000 rare. Does that make it 1, 2, or 3 star rare no not at all but as a matter of sales you do not see them that often on ebay for sale. One way on Elgins where I check to see how rare or common a watch is, go to the Elgin site and do the following g=227 v=49 (anything over 19 is ok) and it will give you the details of that grade. Then near the bottom you will see a link "Search Ebay logs for ??? grade". At one time Wayne was searching ebay sales logs for the various Elgin grade listings. If I see a grade that has low capture numbers then it didn't turn up on ebay that often. For the 227 there are only 3 captures, for the 995 there are 8, for the 266 there are 3. If you look for a common Elgin grade like the 454 there are 191 entries. While not a abosolute scientific method it is a decent indicator.
If someone says the 227 is a common movement, ask them to flip some photos of theirs, I don't think many will show up even though it was a good quality movment in its days.

Hi Claude,Thanks for the info.Mine is in a gold filled Fahys Montauk case,probably not "original".I just serviced it and it gains about a minute on a full wind.Close enough for me.I'll try to post some pictures in a day or so.Thanks again.Norm

Norman your 227 should be gilt, I have the nickel version which is the 229 and both are uncommon Elgins. I thik the correct dial would be SS, mine has the Elgin with filigree on each side of Elgin.

Claude, I have a grade 123, 18s that I feel is pretty rare. Do you have info on the scarcity of these? I think the site had this at 13000 made which I feel is pretty low for an Elgin.

Mike I checked and in 2 years of ebay logs the grade 123 showed up 11 times. Maybe others can chip in but I tend to think there are different survivor rates for different jewel counts. Even though they made a ton of 7j watches I tend to think they were parted or tossed at a much higher rate than a 21j. The highest survivor rate would be the 21-23j watches and I think the early 17j movements survived at a better rate than the later 17j movments.

I tend to use ebay to judge how often I see a watch grade pass through and I normally look at 15-23j version or even early 11-17j versions, I thought I was lucky when I found the grade 229, I don't recall seeing a Elgin grade 227 or the 123 so that is why I say these grades are rare but I guess a better term would be to say uncommon.

To give you an impression of this, I could ask can you show me your Elgin grade 150 and I am sure more than a few on here could/would post a picture or comment, if I ask can you post a picture of a Elgin grade 227, 229, or grade 123 and the posts would be few.

As many "big dog" collectors there are on this board I would not expect my habits to run that counter that I would be collecting watches no one else wants to collect. Even if you look back at the volume on ebay in the late 90's early 2000's for some of these grades to only show up 7-11 times in 2 years I would say they are uncommon.

You can say that not every watch is documented correctly and that is true but I tend to think except for very common 21-23j watches that would be true also, many Elgin 150's even now are not properly identified (I know because I have won a few that way) Some grades like the 571, 992 are easy to identify since the number is on the movement but Elgin grades like the 150/149 are not marked. So that is my very unscientific way to gain insight on how uncommon an Elgin grade is, that and how many times I see them show up on Ebay auctions now.

A Elgin grade 370 shows up in the logs 2x more than your grade 123 even though your grade was made at nearly 2x the production (7300 vs 13000). I think the 370 has a high survivor rate because they were a high grade 17j movement, at the same time period the 370 cost more than the 992 did.

I agree Claude. You hardly ever see a 57 VW going down the road but the 57 Chevy's survival rate is reasonably high. I have an Elgin 16s, Mdl 15, Gr 104 that they made bizzillions of but I rarely see them for sale. Also have a Grade 170, Mdl 5, that I don't see often. But, I don't get out much either!

Hi Claude,My dial is single sunk,Roman numerals,signed Elgin Natl Watch Co.with fancy hands.Norm

Norman you dial is more than likely correct when you see Elgins in the ~8M range you see the Elgin National Watch Co or the Elgin with the filigree on each side. My 229 is in the 8,22x,xxx range. The 227 and 229 were the same class but gilded vs nickel, both 17j PS OF movements. Mine is the last run for the 229 so that is why it probably has the later dial

Claude,Mine is # 5203 in the last run of 227's.Serial # 8224203,mfg. in 1899.

Some pictures of my Father Time grade 995. If someone has a clue to the case makers mark I would like to know. I am sure it is some type of gold case, not sure if it is gold-filled, gold plate or solid gold.











Father Time grade 266 open face

Claude, as it relates to the Case for your FT 995 you might try Lindell Riddle's Patented Flex Test, It has been proven to be an excellent indicator of whether or not a case is Solid Gold or Gold Filled....

My guess is that your case is solid 14k gold....


Regards,

Jerry

Jerry I think so also because the back and front center sections of the covers are flimsy (give more that I would expect) I don't see any brass and I have never seen those markings before so I am baffled. It has some tiny dents on the cuvettes that I tried to see if a local jeweler could/would fix but no word so far. I paid $105 for the case with a 15j Elgin movement in it so if it is solid gold then I did very well.