Hello ,I have what seems to be an unusual 12s South Bend.It's a 17 jewel grade 411,SN 1231482.What seems strange to me is that this one is marked "adjusted".I always thought 411's were always an unadjusted watch.The other thing is, this one is cased in an Illinois Watch Case Co. white gold filled hinge- back case.I also thought 12s South Bends were sold cased only in their own factory cases.This has never been recased,as far as I know,it's been in my family probably since new,and has no other case screw marks.I can't post a picture, but thanks again...Ted Brown
Posts: 1323 | Location: Lebanon, Connecticut USA | Registered: March 28, 2008
Theodore, I for one have very few background documents for South Bend watches, so I would prefer to look at some pictures of these watches, if you can send a member near you some photos, that would help. Or put the watch on a scanner, sometimes they work better than you think. I found a couple 411's in my stuff that are vintage 1917 and 1910 (L-R)
Posts: 6492 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
and they are both "South Bend" cases, named "Panama" and "Chesterfield". You must have a really rare one if it was original and has the history in your family.
Posts: 6492 | Location: Southern California in the USA | Registered: July 19, 2007
Thanks for the pics of your 411's, Dave .I will try to take some pictures of mine and see what happens...My scanner is out of action.Maybe my wife's digital camera will do the job.Nice looking watches you have there!
Posts: 1323 | Location: Lebanon, Connecticut USA | Registered: March 28, 2008
Ted Your 411 is a late one--in fact it was in the last run of 411s produced.It was manufactured in the time period when South Bend like most companies quality was going down hill.
While earlier South Bends were factory cased ,at the end you tend to find them in a variety of cases. Also if a case became worn or damaged its owner may have purchased another one from a different company.
Bob
Posts: 621 | Location: Vallejo, California U.S.A. | Registered: July 10, 2004
Your South-Bend Grade 411 number 1231482 is as Bob mentioned a late production example. Although all accounting and production records were destroyed after the company went out of business it is reasonable to conclude your watch was produced in 1929 from a run consisting of 1228001-1233000 and that about 47,000 of the Grade 411 were produced. Of all South-Bend 12-size movements only the Studebaker "mail-order" at about 60,000 and Grade 429 at nearly 95,000 were produced in greater numbers.
There are a number of misconceptions about South-Bend watches, I tried to clear up some of the most glaring ones in "History of South-Bend Watches" where I also point out that... "All eight of their slightly oversized 12-size grades were factory cased and timed." and "South-Bend marked cases were not made 'in-house' but rather produced for them by various well known case makers in a number of styles." This might be a good time to explore the subject in somewhat greater detail and I will try to explain it as briefly as I can.
As mentioned above, cases such as both of those Dave shared with us although marked "South-Bend Chesterfield" and "South-Bend Panama" respectively were not in fact made by South-Bend but rather by various of the well known case manufacturers using the correct dimensions to fit the unique specifications of somewhat oversize South-Bend 12-size movements. Due to their unusual size a South-Bend 12-size will not directly fit any other 12-size case and no other make movement will directly fit cases that were intended to fit South-Bend 12-size movements. Another point, South-Bend 12-size movements have a detent-stem arrangement which must be carefully removed before attempting to take the movement out of the case.
When they first began 12-size production in 1910 most but not all of the cases were marked "South-Bend" in one manner or another and "South-Bend Chesterfield" markings would be used until the early 1920s along with "South-Bend Panama, 20 Years" in addition to "Pilgrim, 25 Years" and "Pyramid, Permanent" on Gold-Filled cases. Solid-Gold Cases in both 14 and 18K would have South-Bend and at times "Solidarity Watch Case Company" and other markings. I am not attempting a complete or comprehensive listing at this time.
As Bob found when checking eBay auctions it is apparent that during the decade of the 1920s the folks at South-Bend would offer an increasing variety of case choices such your Illinois case. As a further point of clarification we should explain the Illinois Watch Case Company was located in Elgin, Illinois and although they used both "Elgin" and "Illinois" on their cases they were not connected to either watch company. Your case is quite typical of that late 1920s time-frame and is quite likely original to the movement it houses today.
In review, like several other companies, all the South-Bend 12-size watches were factory cased, but in later years the cases will usually not have specific South-Bend markings. The South-Bend 12-size movement is not directly interchangeable into a case made for any other make of movement. For that reason when Bob says... "if a case became worn or damaged its owner may have purchased another one from a different company" ...he probably does not mean another watch company but rather a case made to specifically fit a South-Bend 12-size movement but that will in all likelihood not bear any distinctively "South-Bend" markings.
About the "Adjusted" movement markings, there were no "Unadjusted" South-Bend watches, they were all adjusted to at least 3-positions, something that was pointed to with pride in their advertising. There was increasing emphasis on markings over the years as each of the watch companies would dress-up movements with more markings and freshen their movements by changing the damaskeening style every so often.
I hope some of this is of help to you and to others.
Lindell
Posts: 10553 | Location: Northeastern Ohio in the USA | Registered: November 19, 2002
Thank you Lindell & Bob.Great explanation.I knew 12s S.B.'s were not exactly standard 12 size, but I did not realize they have a detent stem.I've never taken the movement out of the case,I'll remember that if I ever do.This is a really nice little watch, it's a keeper!Thanks again.It's nice to be able to put out a question like this and get such excellent response!...Ted Brown
Posts: 1323 | Location: Lebanon, Connecticut USA | Registered: March 28, 2008
