Hello everyone;

I was hoping some of our members could share their expertise and help me figure out what this is. By that I mean, which "model" it is. On pages 126 of the Complete Price Guide I can find the 23 Jewel Vanguard 1899 movements but only one that's adjusted to 6 positions. Now, on page 127 I can also find all the 23 Jewel Vanguard 1908 movement but there's only one that's adjusted to 6 positions. Neither of these seem to indicate the watch I've provided photos of here. The serial no. is: 28880056

Can anyone tell me exactly what model I have and where it is in the book. If it's even there at all.

Thank you.

Bud

Bud

I can't quite read the movement serial number from the photo. Give us that and we can tell you what model it is.

Bob

Hello Bob, thanks so much. I should have known to at least provide the Serial No. Sorry about that, it's: 28880056

After you mentioned the serial No. I took another look and I think it's a Model 1908. However, there's only two 23 Jewel 1908's in the book. One says 23 Jewels Adj. 6P (Wind Indicator) and the other says 23 Jewels Adj. 5-6P (Wind Ind.)

Is it possible I have a watch that isn't listed in the book?

Bud

The Olson style regulator + the serial number range says model 1908. The end stone on yours should be domed white sapphire or possibly other material[s]. Diamond end stones, which were faceted, were on the 1899 and some of the early 1908's. The guide doesn't list all of the differences but they did make 1908's in 6 position configuration. Yours will be in a like run of 5000 watches I think

regards,
bb

According to the Waltham serial number guide, your watch, Bud, keys out to a 16s, pendant set, model 1912 with pressed jewels. Except for the center wheel, your watch appears to have pressed jewels... aren't they?

According to the serial number list in Earnhardt's "Waltham Pocket Watch Identification and Price Guide" this is a 1912 model. This model is shown on page 127 of the 2010 "Complete Price Guide" and is listed as "Vanguard, 23J, M#1912, Press Jewels". Your watch has pressed in jewel settings for the 3rd and 4th wheels whereas the 1908 Vanguard has screwed jewel settings for these wheels (at least mine does). The other M#1912 listed in the Price Guide is the 23J with wind indicator. There seems not to be much information around that I could find on the 1912. The Waltham Material book only mentions the differences in the wind indicator parts between the 1908 and the 1912 and the 1976 Ehrhardt edition that I have doesn't have any info that I could find.

I leave it to the Waltham experts to give you a better description of what you have and if it is indeed a 1912.

Bob

I believe those are "raised gold cup jewel settings" , but not, raised "screw down" gold jewel settings[except for the center wheel].

I do not believe they are "pressed-in- jewels" that one generally associates with the 1912 model

Perhaps we can draw the experts out

regards,
bb

An example of what I believe are accepted as pressed jewels are in the Vanguard I bought from Mike Hodge Here

Mine shows up on a serial check as a 1908 model, but Swigart has it as a Model 16-A Grade 1623 from the 1st run of 5000 of this Vanguard version May 1944

Hello Mike;

According to the photo it appears that they are ineed all raised gold jewel settings but the center wheel setting is screwed down, and I understand that the center wheel is solid gold. Is that correct Mike?

Also, and I'm just guessing, but I think those hands aren't the original, or perhaps even the correct ones, right?

quote:

your watch appears to have pressed jewels... aren't they?

Thank you Buster, I appreciate the help. I actually did buy this and so I'm trying to learn if I did good or not.

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Yours will be in a like run of 5000 watches I believe.

From what I can see Buster it appears you're right about that. The only one that has screws holding it down is the gold center wheel.

This sure is confusing. Any idea what it's worth anyone?

Thanks to all of you for the great assistance you've offered on this matter. I could never have found this much ibformation on my own. All I have is the Price Guide, and wish I had a better reference, if there is one.

Bud

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I believe those are "raised gold cup jewel settings" , but not, raised "screw down" gold jewel settings.

Hello again Buster. Exactly how, does one tell that a particular movement has an endstone and what the matrial is?

Thanks

Bud

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The end stone on yours should be domed white sapphire or possibly other material[s]

Look at the balance end stone on the balance directly over the staff with 10x and good light. One can tell whether the stone is domed or if it is faceted. If it were faceted, it would be cut like a diamond would be cut with faceted sides. They used white sapphire[most common perhaps] along with other colored stones on the domed ones for the cap jewel on the balance directly over the staff. Its called "the end stone".

Yours is a strange one I will say. It does not show up in any data base I have access to for the model 1908's. I'm not going to say for positive that it is a 1908, it well could be a model 1912. I have heard tell of a few model 1912's with the fancy damaskeening, center wheel in a raised screw down gold cup jewel setting and the other wheels in raised gold cup jewel settings, before they did away with the fancy damaskeening and went to no damaskeening and the broad line damaskeening and quit using the raised cups.

What I am saying it is not like the majority of the 1912's where the jewel settings were "pressed" directly into the plates and the raised gold jewel setting cups were no longer used, I imagine to cut manufacturing costs.

The jury is still out and we demand an expert, please

regards,
bb

Yes, three of these settings are 'raised gold cup jewel settings', but they are pressed and not screwed in. Bud, I'll just have to go with the serial number and the Waltham factory data base which says this is a 1912 model watch. If it is pendant set, it would not be RR grade. The center wheel appears to be gold, and higher magnification, as Buster said, should shed light on whether or not the cap jewel on the staff is a diamond. Look for a domed, faceted stone.

Really nice Vanguard, Bud! I'm not trying to find fault with it, but the hands appear to be from a lower grade.Vanguards and Crescent St.'s at the time your watch was made came with extra heavy spade/whip minute hands,and a heavy, fancy shaped second hand.Nice dial and case combination on that one.Take care, Ted.

Thank you very much Ted, and I thought those looked a little "heavy". Do you know where I could find a pair of the correct hands for this Vanguard. Or, perhaps know where I can find just a photo, and that way could at least know what I'm looking for.

Thanks again Ted.

Bud

quote:

the hands appear to be from a lower grade

Hello Mike;

It is indeed a Lever Set movement with the lever at the Eleven O'Clock position.

Although I did buy this watch, Waltham Vanguard (and hoping I didn't pay too much), it hasn't arrived yet but when it does I will be looking at that end stone. Just to be sure though, is the "end stone" that jewel on the very top of the balance, held in with two tiny screws? It has the regulator thingy around it?

Bud

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If it is pendant set, it would not be RR grade.

Thanks Buster, I really appreciate that. It's a huge help as I still don't know much about such things.

Regards.

Bud

quote:

Look at the balance end stone on the balance directly over the staff with 10x and good light

Actually your watch even if it were pendant set could have been railroad grade just not railroad approved. If at this time you use the strictest requirements of min 21 jewels, adjusted 5 positions, steel escape wheel, open face, and has to maintain +/-30 seconds in a week. The watch you have could be considered railroad grade or railroad quality but in 1912 would never have been approved for railroad service it if was a pendant set. I tend to think it is lever set since I have seen some other Vanguards that look like it. I guess someone would have to see if in 1912 if Waltham offered moon hands, it might be that someone liked the look of moon hands but I would expect big bold spade hands and and as Ted mentioned a bit bolder second hand.

Nice looking watch Bud.

Looking at the "Serial Numbers With Discription of WALTHAM WATCH MOVEMENTS" book yours is a 1912 model lever set. Then if you look at the MOVEMENT PRODUCTIOBN book by Waltham, on page 17 it shows that they made OF LS 101,050 of them.

Regards,
Larry

Hi Bud, If you click on the search box here on the pocket watch discussions page, and type in "how scarce is this Waltham dial", a picture of a Vanguard like yours with the right hands will come up.That one has a wind indicator, but it's the same dial otherwise.I don't know where to find a set like that ,but I imagine someone on here will have the answer.Good luck with it! Ted.

Thanks Claude;

I would agree about the hands, although I wouldn't really know that for a fact. It's just that in every picture I've seen of a Vanguard watch I've never seen moon hands.

Also, it is indeed Lever set Claude. The lever is at the eleven O'clock position on the dial.

Thanks again.

Bud

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I would expect big bold spade hands and and as Ted mentioned a bit bolder second hand.

Thank you for that information Lawrence. I think I will try to find more research material for Waltham as all I have is that online database.

Bud

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Nice looking watch Bud.

Thanks a lotTed, that was very helpful. Man what a great place this is. A never ending sourse of information.

Bud

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Hi Bud, If you click on the search box here on the pocket watch discussions page, and type in "how scarce is this Waltham dial", a picture of a Vanguard like yours with the right hands will come up.

Bud I like moon hands and that may have been the case for the previous/original owner and the hands look to be really clean so it would be a judgement call if I would even bother the watch. I have a Burlington 21J and one would expect it to have a RR dial and spade hands and it has a fancy dial and gold moon hands and I have no plan to mess with it. On some watches that were sold as RR watches that I have are not correct for RR use but are nice looking watches so I don't mess with them as long as what they have is correct, dial hands offered by the brand, that was the case of my Burlington.
And it is nice to see good pictures of movements like the one you picked up.

Appears Waltham did offer Moon hands on some models during the 1925 time period based on this catalog. Waltham sales catalog

Thank you very much for that Claude and I would have to agree with you on that as well. As a matter of fact, when I first saw the watch it was the dial that I saw first and I really liked what I saw. Although I didn't know what was correct or not correct about the hands, I really didn't care, because I simply buy what is pleasing to my eye. Then, after seeing photos of the movement, well, I was pretty well hooked by then. For many of us I think it's all in what pleases the eye, and we often just buy what we like. Let's face it, car dealers don't park all those new cars outside for nothing.

Thanks again Claude.

Bud

quote:

Appears Waltham did offer Moon hands on some models during the 1925 time period based on this catalog.