What would ya'll consider accurate time keeping for a non Rail Road grade watch?

Of course I know a couple of seconds a day would be great but what do ya'll think would be acceptable for a 100 year old watch?

5 minutes off in a 24 hour period? 2 minutes off in a 24 hour period? 30 seconds off?

Remember this is non RR grade and what you consider acceptable.

Thanks,
Harry

I have 7 jewel elgin over 100 years old that
keeps near perfect time minus 20 sec in 24 hours
IMHO 1 minute in 24 hour is good for not RR
for 7 to 11 jewels watch.

Harry to me something that keeps 2 mins/day is ok. Several reasons for this, one-my life does not depend on the watch (my cell phone clock is more accurate) and two during a COA the amount of money needed beyond a simple COA such as poise/adjusting the balance weights gets to be as much as you pay for the watch.

Some of these watches were victims of mass manufacturing and tolerancing so some watches were closer to tolerances (ran like they were designed) and other were a not so close because of manufacturing, cleaning, close but not exact replacement parts etc.

Some watches were used everyday in bad environments, coal dust, fine silt (farming) that sometimes would get inside the watch and act as micro-sandpaper. The lower jewel watches also were not forced to get service on a timely basis like a RR watch was so that came into play also.

If I get one that runs like Peter's I feel lucky!

Some of the earlier watches I have seen didnt adjust well. I have had watches on my desk keeping time to under a minute a day. I then send them to places like California and they will be off 4 minutes. One person sent it back to be adjusted and it was keeping under a minute when they said it was off 3. I am thinking the climate change has something to do with it.
I will also toss this in, I would be leary of watches that gain more than 5 minutes before a coa. Good possibility of problems.
I have sold watches on ebay that people have returned because they were 2 minutes off in a day. I think that the idea that every watch can keep rairoad time is to blame for those returns. Buying a watch for under $100 and expecting it to keep perfect time after 100 years is insane.

Jim, We have all experienced watches keeping extraordinary time when they shouldn't and watches that keep lousy time when they should be "RR accurate". In general, a "healthy" antique (RR or not) watch with a compensated balance wheel* should be capable of accuracies of <1 to not more than 3 minutes a day.

*Early "Solid" balance wheel watches (such as some Waltham 1857 models) cannot be adjusted with Balance weights and often need re-vibrating to achieve good time accuracies.

3 minutes +- is understandable on non RR watchs Dave. Just one question, were the early compensating balances really accurate, or is the 3 minute variance because they were not?

I've enjoyed reading this thread. Where I've been carrying the Elgin 15j KW railroad watch that's been so accurate, I've shyed away from my 11j Illinois KW that invariably loses anywhere from 2 to 3 minutes in a 24 hour period, even after a complete service.

Just goes to show the mind set one gets into when they're spoiled with accurate time keepers.

Sounds to me like my Illinois is doing exactly what it was designed to do, considering its age and construction. It was never INTENDED to be a railroad time keeper.

Thanks for opening my eyes, folks!

('Insane', Jim? Maybe not...how about frightfully hopeful but should know better? )

I still love my 15j Elgin HH Taylor better, though.

Regards! Mark

I'm sure this idea is probably not correct, but why couldn't you "tweak" the regulator on a watch that's + or - a minute or two a day, to compensate for all the other factors, and get it closer to keeping the correct time?
Or, does this discussion already assume that has been done?

Well the original question was really after you have tweaked your watch and gave is a COA. Knowing that after 100 years or so the parts have worn some and the hairspring has lost a bit of it's power, etc... I was not considering completely rebuilding the watch and replacing the jewels, mainspring, hairspring, etc... Just a COA and replacing any broken parts.

I just wanted to know what everyone expected. It appears most people so far would be happy with a non RR grade watch that held time within +- 3 minutes a day.

Harry you have raised a very worthy discussion. When we talk about RR watches vis-a-vis "regular" watches, the main differences between them are simply the time spent at the factory adjusting, fitting and timing them. Any of us who work on these will confirm many many parts are interchangeable. The main differences are SOME (later especialy) railroad watches had smaller size jewelled pivots making them more delicate than a "carry" watch.

That said, ALL of these watches are VERY OLD! Things change, hardness (spring rate), corrosion, wear on the pivots all work together to affect the amount of work it takes to bring them even close to RR accuracies. As a "rule of thumb", I find that the antique watches with broken mainsprings, put away and forgotten 60+ years ago are some of the best candidates for good quality restoration.

Harry, as you mentioned in some cases even for a RR approved watch 2-3 mins is ok in my book. I have a SB 227 that when it was cleaned I was told it had some slight corrosion of the hairspring and that for it to be any better I would need to find an OEM hairspring for it.

I looked, still looking and probably will look for some time but it is operational, cleaned and serviced, looks good and the fact that it is only good in the range of +/- 1-3 mins per day doesn't bother me.

Some of these watches suffered from hack repairs, poor service over their life time which in most cases is 100+ years, "rode hard and put away wet" is an understatement so sometimes I am amazed that some can still keep 1-3 mins a day let alone RR time after a COA.

In regards to the 'tweek'of the regulator, as it has been explained to me in the distant past, from mid range to either the top of bottom of the scale is only a correction of around 30 seconds (plus or minus) on average, so trying to correct for 2-3 minute loss or gain would be fruitless using only the regulator.

The KW Illinois I mentioned above did come back from Chris Abell after a complete COA and main spring replacment. That's as good as it got without using a LOT of his valuable time trying to correct for timing errors on an 1883 11J watch.

Regards! Mark

From one perspective, considering there are 1440 minutes in a day, a mechanical watch that gains or loses 1 minute a day (some of which are over 130 years old), is really a remarkable piece of engineering and skill.

Mike I think your appreciation of the skill involved in the mechanical watch is spot on. I generally figure a 2 minute variation per day is fine whether RRG or not RRG. I have a 7j Hampden 18s Champion that does almost dead on perfect time keeping and nothing beyond a COA was done. I think I just got lucky and everything went together right. I will say that my watch probably set in a drawer unaltered for most of it's life so the movement had, in my opinion, never been serviced. Probably steady use under difficult conditions and bad service work or parts are the biggest cause of major time keeping problems.

Well, while I've having a new bow installed on my new 15j Elgin KW, the Illinois has been pulled out of the box and is happily ticking away on its hook now, and all due to this discussion.

Thanks for the inspiration and information, gentlemen!

Regards! Mark

Harry,

My experience is that lesser grade watches have more 'random diviation' than higher grade (adjusted) watches. Random diviation is caused by the beat frequency of the balance wheel changing randomly while the watch is running due to watch design, mechanical conditions (including number of adjustments) and environmental conditions (especially temperature, position and daily carry).

Random diviation is a condition to factor into the regulator adjustment effort. Ignoring random diviation will cause you to misinterpert the effects of your regulator adjustment effort, and in the end you will overadjust your regulator and will adjust it to often trying to achieve satisfactory time keeping accuracy especially on lessor grade watches.

To me, an ideal regulator adjustment on a lessor grade watch is when the regulator is adjusted in the center of of the random diviation cycle. When the regulator is adjusted thus, the observed effect on the accuracy of the watch is that the watch will gain and lose time randomly within the limits of the random cycle, over a period of days, weeks, and months, but theoretically won't gain or lose time cumulatively.

However, a 'practical or satisfactory' regulator adjustment is for the watch to slightly gain time in actual use, which is daily carry for me.

Now, on a lessor grade watch (unadjusted) you may never achieve what I have earlier described as a 'satisfactory' regulator adjustment. The reason is that the factors that contribute to random diviation are just to many and to difficult to control. The answer here is to adjust the regulator as close as you can conveniently, and then reset the the time on the watch to a known accurate time source periodically.

All watches, low grade or high grade or whatever, need to have their time reset occasionally, just less often on better watches.

On the the other end of the grade spectrum, high grade watches (adjusted 5 or 6 positions) in good mechanical condition, including maintaining their adjustments, have much less random diviation. Achieveing satisfactory time keeping accuracy on high grade watches becomes mostly a matter of regulator adjustment.

Here are the random diviation and accuracy observations I have made on some of my watches, all 16 size pocket watches:

17 jewel swiss unadjusted:
random diviation = +/-10 secs/day
average accuracy = gain 30 secs/week (daily carry)

17 jewel Elgin 574 adj 3 pos:
random diviation = +/-5 secs/day
average accuracy = gain 15 secs/week (daily carry)

21 jewel Elgin 571 adj 6 pos:
random diviation = 1 sec/day
average accuracy = gain 5 sec/week (daily carry)

I regulate my watches to the NIST website and run them dial up lying on a non-slip surface during the regulation process. I do this over a period of weeks (I'm patient, and besides I have other watches to carry during the regulation process) observing random diviation and time gain or loss. After a new COA on a watch I will run it several months before regulating it.

I have found that the post WWII American RR grade, fully adjusted pocket watches are some of the best mechanical pocket watch time keepers around, not quite a good as a quartz watch, but a close second. Even lessor grade American pocket watches from all eras can be impressive time keepers (accuracy variation of 30 secs/week or less).

We have come a long way......

Back in "the day" we would have been very happy and pleased with the then state of the art timepieces that were prevalent.

But times have changed and with the times, new technology has changed many of our lives, for the better, for the most part. In 1916 we would have been impressed and happy with a new Sangamo/950/349/229/Vanguard etc,etc. RRG watch and it's timekeeping abilities. But 90-100 years later and if we survived and were an octogenarian , how pleased would we be with that same watch today ?? Probably if it kept time to within + - 1 minutes per 24hr period, we should probably be tickled.

We are collectors of antiquities and shouldn't expect them to perform to the second[s] with our state of the art atomic timepieces of today. After all they are merely mechanical antiques.

As comparision, let's say you were going on a 10 day vacation from The Everglades to Niagra Falls and there were these two vehicles in your garage to choose from; [see below]

Which conveyance are you going to choose

Collectibles are collectibles and can be used nostalgia wise or if one had no other choices. But for the most part they should be enjoyed/worn daily, occasionally, displayed, stored, maintained, invested in, and collected to remind us of a time that once was.

Two minutes + - per 24hrs is a good answer for a non RRG watch.

regards,
bb

To give some insight to the accuracy rates,

+/- 2 mins/day 1438/1440= 99.8611%
+/- 5 secs/day 86395/86400 = 99.9942%
+/- 30 secs/week 604770/604,800 = 99.9950%
1440x60=86,400 x 7=604,8000

To still give a 99.86% accuracy rate even after the abuse some of these watches have gone through is still amazing.

I would have to agree that later grades that have the new alloy, hairsprings, balances, and mainsprings have an advantage over their earlier brothers.

Buster,

I don't need to carry a watch today, I can get accurate time almost everywhere (as I do), the bank, in my vehicle (including the tractor) or on my cell phone. I enjoy guessing the time from even the position of the sun.

I carry a well functioning watch to help keep the history alive (relive my childhood, so to speak). Just holding it in my hand and looking at it on the shelf is not enough for me. I want to feel the experience they felt back in the day.

If it wasn't for the history, we would not be were we are today. I am thankful for that, and I don't think history should be forgotten.

Yeah, I'd try the Model T, just to be able to hear it and feel it. Eventually, I would revert back to my air conditioned, cruise controlled freeway comfort, though. Two things would come from the Model T experience: 1) reinvigoration 2)thankfulness for the progress we have made.

I will enjoy both.

BTW Buster, quick grab on the pictures! Nice job!

Claude,

I am located in the middle of nowhere, with little access to extraordinary things beyond what is needed for daily living.

Then sometime back came the Internet and access to Ebay.

All of my watches are from eBay, very carefully chosen by observing the pictures and reading the written descriptions. Other than one or two watches, all of my watches have come to me in a unaltered, unabused condition. I have been very lucky.

I am also lucky that I have access to a competant watchmaker within a reasonable driving distance (reasonable for us out here in the middle of nowhere).

I have an Elgin 571 that I believe to be in unused condition. It also was one of my best buys on eBay with few bidders and free shipping.

I don't carry it, but I had it COA'd and it is my best timekeeper. I don't carry it, so a wasted COA? Not to me. I am experiencing it's good function as well as it's good looks.

The later models with all of the latest designs and materials are the best timekeepers and that has been the attraction for me up to this point. The later models not necessarily the prettiest, however.

In the evolution of my areas of interest, I'm starting to get atractted to two tone Illinois movements.

This is an awful staate of mind to be in!

This string has got me going, I usually sit back and lurk and learn from you pros.

David, You mention 'restoration' in an earlier post in this string. With the later model high grade RR watches I have dealt with, I have seen only 'routine maintenence'.

What say you?

Joe I also have been lucky to pick up the nice unaltered watches from the early years and some from the post-depression era. Sometimes like the South Bend 227 the pictures would not show the bit of corrosion on he hairspring so it is limited in the accuracy it can deliver.

The 571 came in 3 version, 1st unmarked 8adj, 2nd marked BWR 8adj, and the 3rd marked BWR 9adj. My first and last verison look nearly new and the middle one saw a lot of use and is not as good a time keeper as the other two.

As Buster said I mostly enjoy my watches, but other than a few I don't wear them much. Most of the ones that I wear are in stainless steel or silveroid cases since it takes a lot to damage those cases.

I also have no issues with picking up the later Elgins that were marked "cased and timed by Elgin" but the movement were made in France (657&755) or Swiss (867&971), since most collector avoid these grades it is easy to find them in nearly new condition and not hurt.

Here was Elgin's specs after ~1910
7J - 60s in 24h. 15J - 30s in 24h. 17J - 15s in 24h. 21J - 5s in 24h. 23J - 1s in 24h

JP got this after 50yrs of service and appeared to have stuffed it in his sock drawer.

Claude,

I was thinking a few minutes ago, why did unused pocket watches go into the sock drawer instead of the junk drawer?

The answer is they represented a significant expendature of funds when they were origially purchased, they required careful care to maintain, they were a source of pride of ownership, and they served a necessary daily function. They also were examples of period 'high tech'.

Their owners wanted to preserve what their pocket watches once meant to them, even after they got their first wristwatch.

Do you think the original owners would be happy about us preserving something that ment something to them, including the watch's
functionallity? I think so, I'm betting on it!

Can't you hear the what the original owner would say today if he could: "Oh look, there is my old watch! And it looks just like it used to, and it still runs!!"

This one got a normal COA and needed no parts, it rests safely on one of the watch pouches that I bought from Phil. I try to restore the watches I buy rather than leaving them in non-working condition, I have a 17J two tone Illinois that was a private label in Ohio and later found a Rockford that came from a jeweler from a town in Ohio near where I grew up and I track down some pictures of the store in the early 1900's along with pictures of the jeweler.

I tried to track down information on JP even sending emails to the cities of Fairhope in different states with no luck.

On Elgin 478 I picked up is engraved with the person's birth and departure date, got that one cheap since I guess most people that was a bit strange, very nice watch and in great condition.

I generally reset a watch when it is off by more than 2 to 3 minutes WRT NIST. Some watches have to be set every couple days, some once a week, and the good ones can go several weeks without needing a reset. My daily carry 17J unadjusted (non-RRG) Illinois averages a few seconds slow a day and can go several weeks between resets.

On one of my posts above you can see that Elgin checked to verify that a 7j could deliver accuracy of <60 secs in 24 hrs. In most cases with the experience of the people that made these watches proabably a lot of 7 jewel watches were put together, checked for 24hrs and then shipped never needing any other adjustment work.

Elgin probably also made a business decision that an accurracy of 99.86?% was good enough for the price of a 7j.

In the case of the 23j the price included the extra effort needed to get it to a 1s accuracy in 24hrs along with the positional accuracy adjustments.

Just to stick my head in the door for a second, I wanted to repond to Buster's question about which vehicle I'd choose...and that was to say, I'm not sure I'm qualified to answer that one.

I depend on a 62 year old Plymouth to get me back and forth on a daily basis to my place of work, each and every work day of the year, rain or shine...summer or winter....and it performs just as good as the brand new jobs that go to the same place. It's all original but for having been changed over from 6v to 12v electrical system...but otherwise, it's the same as the day it rolled out of Detroit in 1950.

No where NEAR a nice a ride as a newer car, as it's cold in winter, and hot in summer, and none of the goodies you take for granted in a new ride....but it's just as functional, and keeps up with the best of them. I drive the speed limit too, which is 55 all the way.

I expect no less from my watches that I carry on a daily basis, regardless of their age.

This thread, though, has opened my eyes just a bit more to the fact I don't HAVE to expect ALL of them to run at a rate that I have determined they should run when they were never designed to operate at that level of accuracy in the first place.

Like I said, while awaiting the return of my KW-KS 15J Elgin railroad watch that DOES run at that accurate rate, my old 11j Illinois 1883 KS-KW is happily ticking away in my pocket.....losing about 2 minutes a day, but running just fine.

Regards! Mark

Reminds me of that commercial we used to see of the old guy going back to Sears to replace his life time warranty on his Model A muffler.
Did you get yours?

I have 10 old watches: 9 pocket watches, and one Hamilton 987A military wristwatch. All of them are within -1 min. per week. I wear them all, but, since I work in construction, doing a lot of painting, I don't wear them to work. I've got a Timex Indiglo for that. But I keep them wound every day, and I love to just hold them and look at them. The best one I have for accuracy is my 1911 Hamilton 954L...it loses a minute after about 3 weeks. My worst is my 1909 Hamilton 940...it will lose a little over a minute per week. I feel that, given the age of these fellers, that is pretty darned good. I know that they are never going to keep up with my computer or cell phone, but it's not like I am going to be down at the rail yard every morning timing train arrivals and departures. Heck, Amtrack isn't even that picky about that anymore! To me, they are wonderful little pieces of history that were made by hand, that still can keep pretty good time. I don't think I am ever going to be LATE for anything in my life when I carry any one of them. Regards, Brad

Brad you mean your Hamilton 954L Richardson Special don't you.

That's the one Harry.

You know Brad I have a 954P movement, dial, and hands that I have never mounted into a case. I need to do that. It keeps real good time but I have no way of checking it down to the seconds per day. I see some people use the NIST website but I don't know what that is. It is a great watch though.