Technical question Hamilton large pillar plate

OK My 976 has a serial number of 60132. It has matching numbers. The pillar plate is larger than other Hamilton 16s pillar plates. My understanding from the information in the Price Guide is that the larger PP models were few and were within the SN 51001 thru 53070 range. Why is the 976 different? I tried to put it into a case that was housing a 972 and it will not fit. The dial is also slightly larger, as a "normal" 4 foot dial is smaller than the one that came on the 976. Is it possible the movement was made during the large PP era, but not numbered until later?

Mike, I'm not sure what the serial numbers in the Price Guide are based on. SN 53070 was finished in Feb 1897, but according to the files that Hamilton put together, the change from the large Pillar Plate took place for the 976 (and 977) early in the year 1900. So there would have been many more SN's with the large PP than the ones listed in the Price Guide. Hamiton lists SN 62391 as the change point for the 976 and 63101 for the 977 where he says it was a change to "Elgin size model" and then adds a note that "Case manufacturers changed their models about this time - In order to fit our former models, it was necessary to turn down the top plate."

Thanks Robert. Not sure where the price guide got their SN ranges. When you quote "turn down the top plate" does this mean actually modifying the pillar plate? Am I likely to find a suitable case, or, could the case be turned to enlarge the opening? It seems to me that turning the pillar plate is pretty intrusive to a collectible watch. 976s seem difficult to find. I would like to find a correct case. I actually have one on the way with a non-running 972 movement with a lower SN that I bought for the case in hopes the 976 would fit it. That was before I discovered the pillar plate size discrepancy.

If I find this case doesn't work, I'll advertise in "Wanted To Buy" in this forum in hopes someone has one they wish to sell or trade.

When I saw you advertise for a case for that watch back the middle of the month, I knew you would have trouble.

I have had 17sz Sangamo Specials where someone has turned the plate down to fit a 16sz case and to adapt a 16sz dial to them

To me that is the worst that a person can do to a watch. To modify is one thing, but if the modification cannot be "undone" at another time, then the watch movement/dial/case have been forever disfigured. As caretakers and collectors I believe we should maintain and preserve.

To modify something that can never be undone, the person performing the act should be banned from horology. They are a butcher and nothing else.

I am strong on my feelings on this subject and I offer absolutely no apology. This is one rule that is a "cardinal" rule, and one that should never be broken for any reason.

The fun part of this hobby should always be in finding the piece to the puzzle to complete it, not to destroy something in order to say "look at my complete watch" and knowing that you have destroyed what the watch once was.

regards,
bb

agree with Buster 110%

The early Hamilton 16 size watches had a 17 size PP just like the Waltham 1888. Around 1900 there got to be more of the small PP "Elgin" model movements from Elgin and other manufacturers including Waltham with their 1899. At this time the case makers focused on this size and this would have made it more difficult for someone to find a new case for one of the large PP watches. So for some period of time the large PP watches could be returned to Hamilton and they would turn the movements down at no cost to the owner. As a result you may find pre-1900 Hamiltons that now have the smaller PP and case. (This information came from an article on "Hamilton Watch Company Myths and Legends" that Dr. Lasser wrote in 2008.)

You could also try looking for a Waltham 1888 case or watch which would be easier to find.

Thanks to Buster, Peter and Robert. Buster, I hope I did not give the impression I was going to do that. I mentioned it would be more intrusive (wrong word) to do that rather than find, or turn, a case. Robert, I do appreciate your follow-up. It makes sense that in those days, factories did what was necessary to keep the customer happy.

I took no exception to what you said Mike.

Today we are left with what remains, ever how pristine or ever how "chopped". There are horror tales from the repairmen/watchmakers as to how this or that watch has been "murdered" by someone and that there is nothing they can do to make it right. In this era parts are disappearing rapidly and in some instances unavailable at any costs.

We need to be truly aware of what is left. We should be paying premiums for pristine, extra nice, and "as original" completed watches. It is to the point where it is no longer feasible to buy components separately.

A lot of folks buy junker/clunker watches, not for parts as they should, but to turn into something collectible. That can no longer be done with the high price components are going for. I break the word "components" down into 4 pieces; mvmt/dial/case/hands. If one has to pay $150 for a good mvmt, $150 for a good dial, $175 for a good case, and $50 for a good set of hands, then that alone totals $525 and exceeds the total completed value of 85% of pocket watches without figuring in a service which it is a 90% surety your now newly completed and assembled watch will need.

People won't pay even $700 for a nice complete Ball Hamilton 999B. So sellers are breaking them down into the 4 components and getting $850-900. That's the way the market is and has been heading for the past 10 years.

Better wake up before it's too late and start looking for those already completed watches instead of hoping to make a silk purse from a sow's ear. To turn a clunker into a presentable/acceptable collectible will now costs you more than an already completed watch "IF" you do not have stockpiled components and you can take that to the bank. When you start looking for that one last component that you need, there are usually 4-5 others that have been looking longer than you and they are now ready to pay more than you

regards,
bb

Now I have another question. You mention a case from a Waltham model 1888 being the same size. Were ALL model 1888s the larger size, or is it only certain run? It APPEARS A 1888 CASE WILL BE EASIER TO COME BY.

As far as know they were all the same 17 size. I haven't seen that many cases for sale but finding a watch with a good case for a reasonable price shouldn't be too hard.

Thanks Robert. I checked through some of my 16s Hamiltons and found I have several others with the larger Pillar Plate and dial. I hadn't noticed before as they came in their respective correct cases. One is a 977 PL SN61402, and the other is a 973, SN79095. This little exercise made me look more carefully at what I had. It is a pretty subtile difference unless you are trying to fit it into a "normal" case.