Now I've been a watchmaker all of five minutes...so new I still have that new car smell, and am sure I have committed many sins that an old time watchmaker would disassemble me for, but as I work to bring life back into my Elgin movement, I've wondered what others have done to mangle it so badly. I have two other movements to disect for parts, and as new as I am to it all, have been stricken to see some of the awful things done to them.

Who mangles these things so badly? Watchmaker wannabes? Poor watchmakers that are or used to make a living at it?

I mean even in my limited experience I've seen bent and dented wheels, bent teeth, pinions jammed in backwards so hard the metal peeled up. All kinds of bent and broken things! I mean what was the guy doing who put a dent in the center wheel, holding it with pliers?

I love my little Elgin and when I finally get it working I'm throwing a party!

Hey Dale,
I also am kinda new to watch repair. I have been collecting and yes trying to repair for about 6 years now. I am self taught,mostly from mistakes. Yes I have also seen the awful things folks have done to some of these movements. Everything from trying to solder together broken wheels(it is amazing what heat does to brass wheels),to actually gluing the movement into the case(couldn't find any case screws,I guess). Get used to it,because if you are gonna do this,you ain't seen nothing yet.

Do all of the screws that go flying out of your tweezers end up in watch parts paradise?

Never to be seen again.

I think most of the butchery you see done to movements is done by people just jumping into repairing, without reading repair books first.
Now about flying screws. I don't have this happen much anymore, but when I do, if I can't find the part with my magnet, I take off my shoes and socks, and walk around the room. This usually works, and let me tell you, you really know it when you step on a fourth wheel pinion.
Brian C.

I keep a little flashlight on my workbench and use it to find the little parts that try to get away...csi style!

I also keep a magnet and a flashlight close by, the bare feet search method is one I'll remember. You should try your local library to locate books on watchmaking/ repairs. my library has a search program to locate books available from other libraries, that they don't have. Gary.

Just shot one of the tinier screws across the room never to be seen again. Thank goodness I have extras in a movement waiting to sacrifice its parts so others can live!

I am working my way through the Chicago school's 1000 pages of lessons and have just ordered the Fried book.

I need as much help as I can get. I have three Elgin grade 290's to play with and all three have parts going in all different directions!

I wonder how many people try watchmaking, destroy a few movements, and then give it up.

I have only repaired/serviced a handful of watches and also have noticed the weird fix it jobs- from epoxy pivot holes to hammered out arbors to extend the length. The mystery to me is how the watch even moved after such botchery.

A couple of watches in my posession are beautiful but I am not sure how to proceed; for one I am convinced the cases have been swithced and like putting an eight cyclinder in a model meant to hold a four, touching anything might make it worse.
I am not sure what to do since putting them back in this wrong case would seem a form of heresy.
About the airborne parts issue-I might make a few of you laugh, but I solved the flying parts problem once when working on a modern swiss movement. In this particular piece they used unusual "c" clips to hold some of the arbors.These clips loved to fly. I ended up getting a large plastic bag- made from the same very transparent material as plastic wrap- extremely light weight and see-through (big enough to hold everything and my hands) as I did the work looking down on my hands and the watch like those science fiction shows where one can stick the hands in and work with the alien parts without actually being inside the zone so to speak.
When they took off everything all stayed inside the bag and on my desk. As an aside I always work on a large sheet of rubber to absorb the bounce when a piece of metal hits and most everything stays on the table. Hey, whatever a feller has to do.

Flying parts - another tip I heard of was to put all the covers on nearby open boxes before you start!

I do this now.

Clive

I use my apron to "catch" 99% of the "fliers". A strip of velcro and you are THERE!

My tip for finding flying parts is keep an eye out for one of those strip magnets used to hold kitchen knives on the wall. Make a string yoke for it and you can cover the whole room in a very few minutes.Most every time I use it I find stuff that I lost quite a while ago........Keith

Good post. I'm also getting started and focused on Grade 290 and 291 Elgins. Unfortunately, most of the ones I come across are in pretty bad shape. I've have about 15 movements now in various forms. Four are running. The latest one I put back together, but it only runs intermittently so it will be apart again this weekend.

Last night I was taking off the lower balance jewel screws on a Hamilton 978 and the little sucker launched out of the tweezers off to my left. I was on my hands and knees for about 20 minutes with a flashlight, then I did the braille methods where you run your hands gently over the carpet. All to no avail. Turns out I have a supply of these in my Hamilton parts cabinet. Whew! My watchmaker friend uses a white sheet like David's apron setup. I'm starting to think this might be a good idea.

John III

When using a flashlight to look for small items on a hard surface floor, I hold it low and shine the light across the surface. That way, small items cast a big shaddow and they're easier to see.

I'm curious, were these mangled watches purchased as "running" watches? If so, did they run reliably?

When a watch is advertized as "running", I expect that the movement is intact and, if wound, the watch will tick for at least 15 minutes. I also expect that a normal servicing will be sufficient to put the watch in good working order.

In general, are my expectations realistic?

This is just opinion of course....

One never knows that a watch is 'mangled' until one receives it and only then when the watch is opened up....

The first part: Some do and most don't but there is always a disclaimer to that effect....

Second part: Advertised as "running", I expect the main spring is intact and the staff to be okay....

In general, yes,I think that your expectations are realistic but sometimes we put too much faith in others that have a somewhat skewed opinion of what they are selling and we as buyers don't receive the full facts....and we as buyers sometimes do not ask enough questions....

Regards,
Jerry

Hey John J., I've been focusing on 290's too. They seem to be inexpensive and plentiful, but also pretty decrepit. So there's a lot of work to do and much to learn. Haven't gotten one to work yet because every one has a different issue. Now I have one good mainspring between 3 watches.

Dale,

Since there were so many of these Elgins made and they were only 7 jewels, I'm guessing that these watches were not maintained. In other words, a "throw away" watch since it probably cost more to have a watchmaker tune the watch up than to just get another one.

Fast forward 100 years and you and I are finding that each of these watches has issues of sorts. Most of the problems I've run into are hairspring/balance issues. Mangled springs or broken staffs. (I wish I could find a supply of NOS hairsprings for these!!!). Mainsprings of the correct size are scarce too. I sent one off to another IHC185 person only to find that it was only one of the correct size among my hundreds of Elgin mainsprings. The ones that have good balances and mainsprings are then invariably dirty. So I agree with you that you need 2-3 of them to make one good watch. Really fertile ground for learning how to repair watches!

Let me know if there is a specific part you need (other than MS/HS) or if you just want to share war stories among newbies.

Best regards,

John

Thank you, I'll keep you in mind when I'm in need of either a part or a shoulder to cry on!

Anybody know if you can punch a hole in a mainspring? One of the broken ones is just at the end where it attaches to the barrel. It's missing maybe an inch. So it would seem I could still play around with it if I could put a hole in it. I know it changes the timing and such, but it would at least make it usable for learning purposes.

I saw on a site from an old book that the author suggested using a staking tool, but good luck with that! What kind of stump he was using is a mystery to me. A mainspring is pretty tough.

Maybe a dremel and drill it?

Dale yes what you need is a set of maispring punches they work great..

Heard this a few years ago and always remembered it forgot where at or who it was that said it but here is what they said ....I figured out some years ago what happens too the parts you zing they go up into the strasphere (outer space)and burn up on re-entry..

Henry B. Fried's, Watch Repairer's Manual, shows just how to change the ends on a mainspring. You guys that want to learn watch repair, need this book.

Just bought it and waiting anxiously for its arrival!!

I know each of us has a story about losing parts & where they go when lost.

I had a nice men's Bulova wrist watch from the 30's that ran well but one day I though I would go ahead & clean.

The usual story about opening the mainspring barrel & parts fly, well the winding arbor shoots across the bench & I actually see it hit.

Well I searched for days, then my wife searched. Every time I vacuumed I would take the dust bag out side & sort through everything.

After about six months I thought OK, it got stuck on the bottom of a shoe & walked out of the house.

Almost a year to the day later, I walk in the room & there lying in the middle of the floor where I walk 12 times a day sits the arbor, just like it fell there minutes before.

I think these parts go through a worm hole to another dimension at at times return.

Just had to add my story.

Tom

When I have parts go missing and suddenly reappear exactly where I left them I know who to blame!

It's the ghost of Mr. Heinzelmann, the original owner of my trusty old Lorch & Schmidt 6mm lathe. He's just giving me a gentle reminder that, even if more than a 100 yrs have passed since he bought the lathe, tidy and methodical work is still the order of the day.

Poor man, he must know by now that he's fighting a losing battle!

Dick

Interesting posts!Nice apron David A. (& Hi Dick)
Have had my share as a newbie...Ever had a balance staff go missing when measuring with the micrometer? One minute it's there - then??? Found that my metal micrometer had got magnitic just enough so that when I went to put it down, it would take the staff with it & then conveniently drop if somewhere out of sight!! NOW I USE a small piece of RODICO and stand up the balance shaft to measure it - does not go anywhere now and is also easier!
Found a great 992 movement a while back (seller said goes like a train - railroad time ...ETC,...ETC!?) Finally got it out - put in a test case - was ALL there inc dial washer - wound - started up and stopped straight away!!! Following newbie instructions - look and look again BEFORE doing anything - and never force things - saw that the power was not getting to the fork - found ANOTHER DIAL WASHER WAS STUCK UNDER THE ESCAPE WHEEL!! Where did it come from??
Likely from where all our other little important bits go....Cheers from the Aussie.

Something to remember about smaller watch parts is their "aerodynamics" are very bad. They "fly" through the air like a pebble through mud. In other words at 10 - 15 PSI air is closer to a liquid to these very low mass/hi drag ratio parts.

If a jewel screw "disappears", 99% of the time it fell in or near the watch works. (hiding under a screwdriver or such) So if turning the works over does not "spill" it back on the work surface pick up the tools and stuff and more closely inspect the work surface first.

Larger parts can travel farther such as Motor barrels, wheels and arbors requiring some magnetic or hands and knees hunting.

The "mystery" (play Twilight Zone theme smusic) is how the most critical parts of any size magically "disappear" only to REAPPEAR hours, days, weeks, even months later.

My experiences with that phenomena have brought me to suspect watches have a spiritual sense of humor.

And then of course there is the aerodynamic qualities of the mainspring you are carefully removing from the barrel.

A little bit bigger and I think it could be an effective flying guillotine!

I can get them out now without damaging myself or the room, but that first one...

Just want to add something about original question, I was speaking to my watchmaker friend the other day and he told me that he bought a watch from a coumpany which was in 'prestene condition', when he got the watch he discovered that the dial was stuck to the movement with chewing gum. So Lord knows what happens to these watches over the years.

Francesco, Do they have super glue or liquid nails available in South Africa. Great stuff to make sure the dial stays on!

Of course, SA is not deepest Africa, yet, I think he soldered some dial feet on to the dial. But thanks for your consern Richard.

In the old days there were many more jewelers/watch repair shops so it was probably hard to know who was good and who was more of a trained hack. I picked up a 23j Hampden Special Railway and it during the repair I was told that to get the proper staff free play they had gouged the are where the balance cock mates to the plate and to top it off rather than using the correct screw they used a metal screw to hold the balance cock on. So that goes to show that even high end or high jeweled grades were victims of hacks.

Another thing to remember is 'back in the day' EVERYONE carried a mechanical watch, so watch makers and their helpers were buried with work. They were more interested in fast turn around rather than correct work.

Anything to get a watch running again and out the door so they could move on to the next job.

Regards! Mark

Thats what I call a boomerang part. It's still on the edge of outer space and will be landing on my bench in a few months as most do.
David uses the same device I do for getting 98% of the falling parts but I keep forgetting to hook the apron to the bench. If I went through this room in a 1 inch grid pattern I would need a shoe box to hold all my findings. I found a hour hand under my computer desk the other day and it's 6 feet from my work bench. I remember loosing it but now I can't remember what it goes too. To stick with the subject I found a Waltham with tooth picks for dial screws. The problem is that they where super glued in.