Below is a picture of an unusual and rare 12 size watch.

Just by looking at the watch a 12 size fanatic could tell you whats so special about this watch and what is inside.The movement is from 1923.

Any educated guesses. Hint --times were getting tough for selling these type of watches

I just picked up this watch on Ebay for $150 and was the only bidder. I now own two of these watches.

Bob

Robert,

Isn't this a hunters case movement that has been converted to an open face dial and case to make it easier to sell? Illinois did this with several movement grades so I don't know for sure which you have, if you had told us the number of jewels I could have at least narrowed it down. I really like the Deco dial and case Robert. It is a nice watch and I'm looking forward to seeing the engine.

John

John
You are correct about it being a hunter

Illinois created special dials to convert these hunters to open faced watches. Estimates are that about 200 of these special "open face dials were created. The dial on this watch is the fanciest one that I seen . The other specially made dials were much plainer.

Some additional hints--this case is typically seen with two different grades.Also the movement in this watch is listed as an open face movement.

Bob

Robert,

Is it a 23J Grade 410? I recently bought one in the exact same case and dial from Robert Jones here on the IHC auction board, but I paid over twice what you did.

My guess is that what makes yours special is that it is an earlier version marked "Jeweled Barrel" instead of "Motor Barrel" like mine.

John III

John
The movement in it is actually rarer than the 410.

Bob,
You must know something about this movement that we don’t,
It comes from a run of 1,000 made in 1923, from a total of 21,410 open faced and hunter movements. As it’s from a run of 1,000 I would say it was an open faced movement.

Jim Carroll

Bob,
Is it an Abe Lincoln hunter movement with the run possibly 4,478,801 - 4,479,000. As movements in 4,478,700's are open faced.

Jim Carroll.

Jim
You are absolutely correct.

The watch is an Abe Lincoln Hunter #4,478,910 in a Mannhiem gold filled case.About 1,200 blocked serial numbers were reserved for A Lincoln hunters.Why these are listed as open face will remain a mystery.

This particular Mannhiem style case was almost exclusively used for converting Illinois Hunters
into "open faced" watches.

Bob

That is an amazing find Robert! Did you see the movement before your purchase? Can we see a photo of the movement now the cats out of the bag.

John

John
The picture is from last nights auction.No movement was shown.

When I saw the serial number was for an open faced 21 jewel A. Lincoln I immediately knew that the watch was a specially converted hunting movement.

About 7 years ago I purchased a watch with an identical case and dial with an Abe Lincoln hunter movement for $200.

Since that time I have seen three other Mannhiem cases with the same dial. Two of them had Illinois Gr 410 hunter movements ( John Flahive's watch was one of them).

Because interest is so limited in 12 size I often have to school myself about these watches. For years Jerry Treiman and I have shared whatever information with have with each other--it has really made this hobby fun for me.And I have enjoyed posts by John Carroll about Illinois 12 size.

The lack of interest in 12 size has allowed me to collect some of the rarest high grade 12 size watches known on a beer pocket book.

There is so much still to learn. With the price of even common RR watches in decent shape starting to approach $400 I would encourage people to consider collecting these watches.

Bob

Robert,

Thanks for the lesson on the 21J A. Lincoln. It really comes down to experience with these 12s watches which I am grateful you and others have shared.

Congrats on a rare find and another great deal!

John III

Thank you Bob, for your insight and knowledge. Your posts are much appreciated.

If any one needs to reach me my email address is:

philsanchez@hughes.net

Robert,

This must be a cousin to your watch. It has a seven sided case and a 19J A. Lincoln movement, serial number 4923839. The hands are boxes and the case has enameling on the back.

I won it on ebay for $172.50 and got it yesterday. Can you tell me more about this one?



John III

The front:

The back:

John
I have always liked these watches.

I think your watch is a very distant cousin as the 12 size 21j A Lincoln introduced in 1917 is the so called thicker model( estimated production about 21K OF and 1.2K Hunter).

The 19j 12 size extra thin A. Lincoln was introduced in 1926. The watch is listed as both A Lincoln ( first 4,300) and grade 527 (12,000) in the factory records.

I would hope others would respond but to me these watches remind me of the extra thin model grade 525 17j Marquis( N=2,450) and Marquis Autocrat (N=40,300)--the Marquis is much scarcer than the Marquis Autocrat.

Many of these extra thin watches came with magnificient dials and cases.

To the best of my knowledge this is the only 7 sided watch I have ever seen. Think twice about buying one with a broken or cracked crystal--you would need to get a custom made one

The watch comes in either a green gold or white gold filled case with a design similar to the one on your watch. My experience is that because the back cover is very thin most of these watches have numerous dings.

Enjoy and have a good holiday.

Bob

John
I forgot to add that both the hands and dial are correct fo this watch.

Bob

18,500 Grade 527 Model 3 extra thin Abe Lincoln watches were made from 1922 to 1927. The 7 sided case is called the Trustee model which was used on the extra thin Abe Lincoln and the Marquis Autocrat.

John,
Nice watch, the regulator needs to be reset, its at the wrong side of the adjustment pin.

Jim Carroll

Friends,

You all know I seriously enjoy these 12 size watches as well as you fine men. One thing I thought worthy of noting. Look at the nice ad inset that Jim posted. It clearly shows a retail price of $55.00. This would have been just before the depression according to Jim's dates of production. This is a serious amount of money for this time period and nearly as much as a 23 jewel Sangamo Special cost at this time. These watches just never seem to get their due. Fantastic watches Robert, John, and Jim and thanks for sharing them.

John

Robert and Jim,

Thanks for the information on the Grade 527 watch and Trustee case. Neat to be able to authenticate the watch with an add. It even mentions the enameling.

John,

The $55.00 price tag amazes me too. There were quite a few (18,500) of these made according to Jim, but a fraction of the number of Bunn Specials at less than half the cost.

The 12s size watches are so fun to me - like finding a wheat penny in change.

John III