I'm a new member,so I wanted to say thanks for letting me join up! This may seem a dumb question,but can anyone explain why most Elgins have only balance weights and no meantime screws?I have a 16s 19J B.W. Raymond and an 18s No. 349,and neither have them All the pictures I've seen show none also...Thanks again

Welcome to our "wild bunch" Theodore, and your thought provoking thread! Checking whats running on my timing stand, my 348 HC 11612238 and both 349's 13255702 & 13329425 are like yours with the mean time screw occupied with "heavies" screwed all the way in. As for some 16s, checking my HC Father Time 21j, 14228429 has no meantime screws either, BUT my Invar Balanced 16s BWR 21J 25595842 has 4 Mean time screws! This shows from a cursory check that Elgin may have added this feature to later years of production. Anybody?

Hi Theodore and David, kindly help another neophyte,(again), and define meantime screws and balance weights. Thanks.

Page 43 Complete price guide to watches. The higher adjustment level watches had special (mean)timing screws at 2 or 4 positions that have a friction fit thread so they can be adjusted in or out in pairs to very precisely raise or lower the rate of the Balance wheel escapement system. (Make the watch run faster or slower)
The other screws are "Balance weight" screws have 2 roles;
1. They are used to "poise" the Balance wheel so that it has no "heavy spots, after the roller is assembled, and before the Balance spring is installed.
2. They are added or deleted to raise or lower the mass of the Balance wheel so it oscillates correctly in accordance with the stiffness (resistance to oscillation) of the balance (hair) spring to produce a generally correct rate.

They are also manipulated during the final adjustment of the watch for temperature, isochronism and positions depending on the grade of the movement.

Get a Copy of the price guide available right here in our club. It is full of this type information. A very good "Primer" on watches. You will learn a lot from it.

Interesting, I had never noticed this about Elgins.

The other use of standard balance screws is that they can be relocated around the balance rim (placed into unusued tapped holes)to adjust the amount of temperature compensation. Meantime screws would already have to be in place, but would not be moved. They are used to adjust mean (average) time.

BTW David, I have been meaning to contact you regarding James Abbe, President of Hampden, whose daughter married Charles Rood. I have asumed that he was a successful merchant in Springfield, but never learned what he did.

Mike

James T Abbe (Jr) B March 16 1849 was the son of James Abbe, Tinmaker who moved to Springfield MA in 1843. There were two children, James T. Abbe who married into a Local Railroad Family and was the Banker who was founder (funder?) of Hampden W.Co., and his sister Caroline Abbe who married Chas. Rood as his second wife . Chas. was an officer of Lancaster (Hamilton) Watch Co. The below is what I scanned from my copy of Great Grandfather Cleveland Abbe's "Families of Abbe and Abbey" Geneaology.
We sure were a bunch of toublemakers!

Thank you David, very enlightening. I will have to look at my guide more closely.

Thanks David,

Will have to dig into what I had for dates and relationships. I obviously have some confusion here.

Charles Rood was not just an officer (actually was not involved with Lancaster at all), he was the mover, shaker, and President in creating Hamilton. He had purchased a controlling interest in Hampden in 1877, serving as Treasurer. Factory superintendent Henry Cain was the secondary owner. Rood became Hampden President during the early 1880's, as Abbe retired (seemingly at a relatively young age). Rood & Cain sold Hapmden to John Dueber in 1885, then they purchased defunct Aurora in 1890, completing the unfinished inventory. They then purchased the Lancaster factory in 1892, through a somewhat complicated arrangement, and merged the two factories in Lancaster as Hamilton. Rood retired and sold out in 1910.

You Abbe's seem to marry well.

Mike

The "Family rule" ever since 1635 was LONGEVITY! We did OK on that, some lead poisening though, hard to outrun a bullet during various historical conflicts of American History! Uncle Dr. Rob died of Bone marrow failure, to much messing with Radium for medical treatment. He gave my dad a heckuva radiation burn on his neck tryin to do a Tonsillectomy with radium needles, it failed, and I was still born all in one piece!

Thanks for the replies, I've always wondered why such well made watches would have no meantime screws,when much lower grades do.It would have saved the Elgin factory adjusters some time and work, since you can "dial them in" without moving the regulator.My 2 Elgins I mentioned luckily do keep perfect time,I've never even had to move the regulators.I can't stand seeing a regulator way off to one side.......Ted Brown

This is an interesting discussion. Today I was reading From Springfield to Moscow The complete Dueber-Hampden Story- that I purchased right here from IHC 185 and I noted on page 9 a director of the Hampden watch company was a James Abbe, I suspected a connection but did not want to post and ask personal info. But from this post it appears i have my answer!!!

Michael thats where I learned it too when I was reading the same book that I got from 185. Part of the rewards of this dynamic group are sharing our new information and discoveries every day.

Theodore, I should explain that the watch companies all calibrated the balance wheel to the balance (hair) spring AFTER they finished with the weight assembly. To calibrate the rate or accuracy of the watch, they "Vibrated" the wheel spring asembly while adjusting the length of the Balance spring until they had perfect 300 BPM vibrations, which in fact was not too hard to do.

The Mean time screws were sometimes used later when the watch factory was adjusting for all the positions, Temp., etc., and "ALWAYS" by Watchmakers servicing the watches for RR qualification. That is what surprised me about the 348 and 349 because those are RR Grade, and to service their RR re-qualification the service Watchmaker may have to undercut a screw or add timing washers. Messing with ANYTHING on the Balance wheel except the Mean Time screws was frowned upon by some RR watch inspectors.

Thanks again, David.