...have been looking into various aspects of 23 Illinois SANGAMOs and came across this one at eBay auction and wonder if in your considered opinions the hands are right for it and indeed if the dial itself is appropriate to the 'piece?...it has been my relatively new understanding that the hands should be in better proximity to the numbers chapter?...thanks....

jury still out on the dial for me......

i would have to have it in hand. i have not seen it in repro dial advertisments i have come across

the straight line signature is usually not seen on these early watches.

the empty space around the outer part of the dial has my attention...

it is though a 14 size stencil was used on a 16s blank.

real, repro, or refinish, ????

Note also the red numbers in the seconds dial.

Has anyone seen this on other Illinois dials (any size) ?

Charlie

Terry,

A very strange-looking dial to say the least. I sort of agree with your comment about the wrong size stencil apparently having been used, yet the sinkings on the dial look to be in correct proportion to the chapters, which would not be the case if a size 14 chapter was simply silk screened onto a size 16 dial. So in that case, where did all the extra blank space around the edge of the dial come from? The "Gothic" style of the chapters and the block lettered "Illinois" signature are in conflict. Another thing that clearly doesn't belong are those skeletonized hands -- didn't most all Sangamos have diamond hands?

Ed

Here is the link for this auction, and a better picture of the dial and hands.

23 J SANGAMO

Another proportion that looks out of whack is the length of the minute and hour hands -- definitely way to big for the chapter that is on the watch. The second hand does look correct though, it appears to be a "diamond" hand. That Mainliner case is also out of place, 30-40 years too new for a 1902 watch.

Ed

Ed,
Please don't refer to all J.Boss RR cases as "Mainliner". People who read this pick it up and log it as fact. Reading or seeing is believing as they say.

We have had many discussion on this subject on this board. Do a search and find out what a Mainliner case is. A Mainliner is made by Keystone and has the identical marking in the back but also is signed "Hamiltom RailRoad Model". They also have two raised ridges at the edge that a regular J. Boss case doesn't.

I have spent years correcting and educating collectors who are convienced that they have a "Mainliner" case, when it is not. Of course they want a Mainliner price for it also!

The hands are a "open diamond" or "cathedral" type. No Railroader in his right mind would have those on a 23 jewel Sangamo.

The dial is not correct for this period of time. The dials produced in 1902 were done is english script. not block print. The dial may a legitmate dial but not for this time period and this watch.

Any combination can and has come out of the 'thedailywind". They are in a business to sell watches. This is a nice watch, dial and case combination if you don't mind that they don't match the timeline.

Not to technical, but it appears to me as a Montgomery dial with out the outside numbers. Hour hand is correct length for the reading of the hours and the "Extended" minute hand appears to reach the "Montgomery" numerals. The seconds bit hole appears to line up great, and the symentry of the seconds bit goes with the double sunk area..Look at a montgomery and the hour numerals, to me at least, seem to match...
The mising 6 in the seconds bit?? Maybe thats why the numerals are red....

Just guessing,
John Pavlik

quote:

---

Not to technical, but it appears to me as a Montgomery dial with out the outside numbers.

---

sounds reasonable to me...good observation.. but why?; when?

it is an enignma.......

More obervations....

The auction watch seconds bit is smaller that both of the other examples.

It appears to me that Lindell's watch on the left has an hour hand that is to short as just the tip reaches the actual number. The other appears to be correct. Now this may be the way it should be but again obervations.. the auction watch Hour hand "Seems" to be appropriate length... I was under the assumtion, and you do get into trouble assuming, that an hour hand should at least reach the mid numeral...

Terry, if any of my observations are close to correct it was luck.. Why this may or may not have been done is best left to your expertise...

One thing I have noticed since finding a Sangamo 23 with the Montgomery dial and heavy diamond hands is the ease of time telling. The minute diamond almost completly covers the hour number, to the point of not seeing it, and points to the minute track..very clearly..Was that by design..??? While the hour diamond is designed to point out the hour without anyone mistaking it..Clearly the easiest watch that I have to "Tell" the time...Amazing stuff....

John

I have never seen an Illinois model 4 or 5 dial that had just the word Illinois on it. All I have seen have had Illinois Watch Co in different types of script, not block letters.

The model 6 thru 9 had the straightline Illinois as on this watch. These dials will not fit a model 4 or 5. So, unless the dial feet have been cut, it is not an Illinois dial. I also question the spacing on the chapter ring.

I saw this auction and immediately believed that the dial was not original.

Tom

Lindell,

Thanks for showing what correct Illinois watch dials and hands should look like.

Tom,
Thanks for your astute observations on the auction watch dial and the possibilities of the dial feet being removed.

I would sure like to see the back of this dial!

Not long ago I had a 16 size Montgomery dial with curved "Illinois" signature that had foot positions for the Getty model.

I haven't seen the dial that is the subject of the thread before either, but one thing to bear in mind is that Illinois in later years made dials with Getty model (4 and 5) feet positions that were intended as factory replacements. These were illustrated and offered in the factory material catalogs, and I am fairly sure is what my Montgomery dial was.

I just browsed through a 1923 Illinois catalog, and though this particular dial is not illustrated there is a Montgomery dial with the same 1-12 numerals and spacing. If the Montgomery 1-60 digits were eliminated it would be very close to the dial we are considering here. There is also no exact match for the hands in this catalog, but there is a very similar set with the only difference being that the diamond shape is filled rather than open.

I too would like to see the back of this dial, but my guess is that it is original (but late) factory replacement material rather than being some kind of modern reproduction.

As for the case I think there is a pretty clear consensus here that it is from a significantly later vintage than the movement.

And as for the movement it is a typical 2-tone ribbon pattern 23J Sangamo identical to a few thousand others that Illinois made around the turn of the century.
Fred

thanks Fred... I can see that...

I have a sangamo with a montgomery... will pull out of safe, take a few snaps, remove it and take some more...


I also believe hamilton had some factory replacement dials for the four footers with block letters... factory dial, but designed as replacement... have at least one of those too...

i did not even comment on case......

got into safe today...

here is an image of a monty dial on a model 5 sangamo

note the straight line signature...

watch is 2,000,000 + movement

If I have to, will pull dial for image of back...

If you add montgomery numbers to the outside edge of this dial...would you not have two sets of minute markers??????.....Robert

You got it Robert!

If you add the marginal minute track to the auction example you'd have two tracks. That dial has the red 5-minute track already, so you're right in that nothing could be added.

Terry, your dial is a great one for the movement it is on, but the movement in the auction example many years older than yours. I think you'll agree that one should front a dial like one of the ones I showed above. Also, notice the length of hands on your watch are comparable to my "left" image and I believe both sets are right.

I don't know who made it or when they did it, but again I say... all the proportions on that auction dial including the diameter of the center section are completely wrong! It does not go together. If "Bozo the Clown" made a watch dial I'll bet it look a lot like the goofy one in the auction. Looks like once again someone put their leftovers together.

Here's a song request for the watch in that auction...

"Just Walk Away Renee"

Lindell