I was wondering if anyone has an answer to this one.Did Elgin make aFULL PLATE 21J B.W. Raymond?I've never seen one, or seen advertising for one, only for the 3/4 plate Veritas model movement style.I've only seen 15-17J full plate BWR's.I've also seen sellers, for some reason, call 21J No. 349's B.W. Raymonds, which obviously they're not.If 21J FP B.W. Raymonds are out there, they must be somewhat scarce, I know the 3/4 plate one is common in 19-21J.Thanks again,Ted.

The grade 349 could be marked "349", BWR or or Father Time so if there was a full plate 21j BWR that would be the only one that I can think of. The FT or BWR marking on a grade 349 is not seen that often.

Thanks, Claude.I have a grade 180 17J BWR, and a 21J No. 349, but never saw a 21J marked B.W. Raymond.I like the looks of the Elgin full-plates,they have some beautiful damaskeening....Ted.

Ted there is one 3/4 plate (grade 390 BWR) that is sometimes marked "349" with no BWR marking, these are also a bit rare to see but I have seen 2-3 on Ebay. You are correct as a general sense but Elgin did strange stuff at times so it is hard to say anything with 100% confidence. I have more than my fair share of full plates Elgins, in the 17, 21 jewel range, I honestly can't think of a 19 jewel full plate that exists but again I would not stake my life on that statement. The reason I collect them is the DMK effect and in many cases people pass them over and you can pick them up at a good price.

You're right about all that Claude,I too have seen a 349 3/4 plate advertised, that was a new one on me!I have on my Elgin "must have" list a 21J full plate Father Time.Overlands look pretty nice too.Can't get enough 18 sizes! Best regards, Ted.

Here is a nice full plate Elgin (grade 343)that is available in the Overland, GMW and the marking as this one (Elgin National Watch Co). It is a low producion movement and a bit hard to find. The other is a grade 181 21j.

Ted when I was looking at Wayne's site and doing the searches for the full plates that were 21j and marked BWR there was a reference to a the grade 349 being marked as 349, FT but he had a note on the first run about possible markings as a BWR. Also in the list was the grade 266 that also mentioned a marking as FT or BWR. My 266 is marked FT, the 266 is full plate and 21j but less than 1000 of these grades were produced. I haven't seen in 21j full plates marked BWR but there are some notes to suggest that some could have been marked BWR. I have a early run lever set grade 150 that most are pendant set and I recently purchased a BWR grade 370 that is pendant set and no one has responded to any posts if they have ever seen a pendant set BWR 370 before.

Wow, beautiful Elgins Claude! I really like that 181, never heard of that grade before, is that lever-set?I can't see "adjusted" on it, but it must be.I'm not as up on all the many grades of Elgin movements, It seems like their grade numbers are all over the place.I wish I had bought Ehrhardt's Elgin book back when it was easily available.I do check out Wayne's great site from time to time, though.I guess I should have searched on there before asking this BWR question.It does appear that a 21J full plate BW Raymond would be pretty scarce, if there are any at all.I always assumed that they only made them in the Veritas style.Thanks for the pics and the info!, Ted.

Keep your eyes open for the 181 the sn runs from 7132001-8500000 and is adjusted and RR approved, it has a 17j brother (180), both the 180 and 181 both usually sell fairly cheap and are excellent movements.