Serial numbers on watch movements can tell us alot if we have the guidebooks to look them up. Visiting various watch sites as well can give us info too if we provide serial number of movements. But what about watch case numbers? Are there books to look up stamped or etched case numbers? Why are there case numbers on pocket watches?

I'm somewhat confused with regard to various case names as well. Which watch case companies coincide with manufacturers in determining original watch and case?


Stephanie O'Neil
NAWCC Member 143979

-- a lot of good questions and not a lot of good answers:

As far as I know, no one has compiled lists of meaningful case numbers, except as they may document which movements and cases were together at the time of a particular visit to a watchmaker. I have not heard of any surviving case company records. I have often wondered if case serial numbers are useful to us, today. The answer is sometimes "yes" and sometimes "no". In looking at cases from even one maker, such as Crescent Watch Case Co., it appears that different styles of cases may have been numbered in their own series, so that nickel 18-size cases may be in different series from gold-filled or silver cases. I am not sure if this is so -- it is just an impression I get from my experiences. The numbers may have been only consistent within a particular case plant. The giant Keystone conglomerate owned most of the major brands at one time, brands such as Crescent and Philadelphia. They maintained the individual brand names, probably to give the appearance of competition that did not really exist. Without evidence to the contrary I am guessing that they may have turned out various brands within a single factory or the same brand from several locations.

There are some rare instances of recorded case numbers. When I was doing research in the Waltham records at the Baker Library (Harvard Business school) I found listings of cases made by Depollier for Waltham, listed by number. These appear to have been numbered in their own sequence for Waltham. I have also found cases made by some of the smaller casemakers which also appear to have custom number sequences for a particular customer, such as for Bigelow, Kennard & Co. (by Jeannot & Shiebler).

Since the case companies were, for the most part, independent of the watch companies there is often no correlation between case brands and watch companies. A major exception is the relationship between the Hampden Watch Co. and the Dueber Watch Case Co., written about elsewhere. This is a whole topic unto itself, but briefly, Hampden bought their own case company. There was also a period when Waltham, Elgin and Keystone were in collusion to control pricing and distribution in certain markets. I believe they also tried to dictate Keystone cases for their watches in certain export markets.

When the watch companies started turning out factory-cased watches there developed a somewhat closer relationship, although they still used several case companies for different grades and styles of cases. I illustrated at least three different case companies that Hamilton used for their grade 400 in another thread here ( https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=3206049661&f=5656047761&m=6746050013 ). The Wadsworth Watch Case Co. provided beautiful cases for factory-cased watches by most of the major watch companies. Some of the factory cased watches from Hamilton, Illinois and Waltham (and probably others) are not marked as to who made the cases. I have been doing research on some of these for Waltham and Illinois, and I find the case numbers appear to have been assigned in a rough sequence and may be more useful. There are some very nice "Hamilton" cases that would be interesting to learn more about (such as who made them?).

There is a lot of potential, difficult research to be done on American watch cases, but it can also be very interesting.

You can use the case numbers to make sure that all the covers and body are the same and original.
Brian C.

pwpartsetc@pwatch.com

I notice on several watches the number on the rear cover does not exactly match that on the body of the case. For example in front of me at the moment is an AWC Co Empress case marked made in Canada. The number on the inside of the rear cover is 3255328 but the number on the case body is 55328, the first two digits 32 are missing.

Is this a matching case, if so why are the first two numbers missing?

Geoff

this is very common on most cases. they only saw the need to match the last few digits for reassembly before packaging, as they were manufactured in groups [or lot sizes].

Some later wadsworth cases have an X that preceedes the last four or five digits on the case body and bezel.

Now that y'all mention it, it does seem strange that NO case company records are known to exist.

There were more case companies than movement companies, and case companies actually had a good reason to keep serial number records -- at least for 10, 20, or 25 years!

Interesting.........

Since Keystone eventually ended up owning most of the other companies, I wonder if they also ended up with all the records from those companies. If so, perhaps it would account for how none of the records managed to survive by random chance.

=====================

Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas
IHC Charter Member 49

As you may be aware, the movement and case numbers often match in Swiss and English watches. For these, the case number has importance. Often, in early Swiss watches, one can't see the movement number unless the dial is removed. Thus, if you want to record the serial number of the watch, you may often use the case number.

Best regards,
Greg

Jerry T.,
You provided us with some very interesting information regarding watch cases. It's too bad no documentation was kept for the timekeepers of today to learn from. Thanks!

Brian C.,
So generally, numbers on cases should match all covers? I'm not sure all of my watch case numbers match.

Geoff,
Thanks, good question!

Terry H.,
Thanks for answering Geoff's question.

Steve M.,
Good point. Thanks.

Greg C.,
Thanks for the information, Very helpful.

Stephanie O'Neil
NAWCC Member 143979

usually the bezel will have the last 5 or so digits scratched into the inside back somewhere, using Roman numerals, with an "X" for "0".

Yes they should match.
Brian C.

pwpartsetc@pwatch.com

Jerry T is correct on the roman numeral hand scratched numbers.....

these are the most difficult to read...but they are there.... sometimes deciding 'which end is up' is the challenge!

the example of X I spoke of is different.... on later wadsworth cases.... for example the model 3 {2 tu tone} case used on the 992B

Terry referred to the Model#3 2 tone case on the Hamilton 992b. Does anyone know if that case was only made for Hamilton by Wadsworth and was it always a gold/base metal combination?

Geoff

All examples I have documented of the tu tone model 3 bar-over-crown case have been marked base metal in the rear cover and are Wadsworth cases.

I have seen one example marked 14k gold filled in the rear cover, BUT the case numbers could not be verified, nor did the bezel pattern match the bezel pattern of the known examples.

These case markings contradict the case material that is shown in the 1947 Hamilton material catalog, page 19. The case description in this factory ad shows the case material to be stainless steel. No examples have been verified to date.

Geoff,

I have Hamilton 992B number C187770 from 1947 production.

The porcelain "Montgomery" dial has complete 5 and 7 numerals and it also features beautiful blue hands. The 2-tone "Number 3" case is numbered H855131 inside the back, X5131 on the frame and 5131 on the bezel. The case-back is fully marked with "Wadsworth" and "Base Metal" above the serial number. Without question the frame is yellow-gold-filled though it is unmarked except for "Hamilton" on the crown.

This example has but minimal wear and the Butler-Finish is still quite sharp on the case-back. As Terry alluded to, the design of the bezel and back are exclusive to the Number 3 and these cases are a real standout. If pictures would help I'd be happy to post any detail you or anyone else reading might find of interest.

This is an excellent subject for discussion, there are indeed some "fakes" around. Not until Terry pointed it out here a few months ago did I fully realize just how unusual and distictive these cases really are. I'm thankful to Terry for his earlier explanation which piqued my interest in finding the one I now have.

Hope this is of help!

Lindell