Hi all,

A while back I bought a South Bend 343 from an antique dealer who does not specialize in watches or clocks. This is an 18s, 17j watch from ca. 1906 (movement # 456698). It's clearly housed in a replacement Dueber Silverine case--in fact, it looks like several different movements have resided in this case over the years . But I bought the watch because I just fell in love with the gorgeous movement demaskeening, along with the low production numbers, which I believe to be about 4100 movements produced over four runs between 1905 - 1908.

I'm really curious is about the dial. This a single-sunk Roman numeral dial with red 5-minute markers and a block "South Bend" signature. It's pristine. I've spent the better part of the day looking for exemplars from this time period but have come up blank. I've seen other mid-00s 18s South Bend movements with variations on my specimen. I've seen one with the same dial but with a script signature, and another with an Old English signature. And I've seen one with the block signature but with Arabic as opposed to Roman numerals.

Any South Bend experts who can comment on both the desirability of my movement and/or the correctness or history of the dial?

Thanks!

Mike

Here's the just outstanding movement:

Here's a view of the dial with the bezel on:

And just for fun, here's the back of the replacement Dueber Silverine case:

Mike,

If you don't hear from him... reach out to Rafal Woler in Poland... He focuses on the South Bend watches in all sizes and if I recall has managed to gather just about one of every model.

He's been pretty quiet lately, but you can find his contact info in the members section.

quote:

The use of what I call "block-letters" rather than "script-signature" on South-Bend watches began with the introduction of their 12-size movements in the 1910-1912 time-frame. Faster selling models would have logically been the "first-out" and therefore reflect the signature change-over sooner. As that phase-in took place over the next several years many collectors would prefer a "scrip-signature" dial on your watch.

The above is a quote I have saved from Lindell.

Your watch was a decent grade and I believe adjusted to 3 positions, but hard to tell/prove since it is unmarked. I believe your figures to be correct on year and total production.

regards,
bb

Thanks Buster. I recall that discussion with regard to dials on 16s RR watches but wasn't sure if it also applies to 18s ones. I'm just getting stumped trying to find reliable info about mid-00s South Bend 18s watches.

So, let me pick your brain another moment. Do you think this movement would have qualified for RR service at the time it was made? Also, do you think these hands are appropriate for the dial? Your thoughts, as always, are appreciated!

I think Paul is too kind, I still miss many SB in my collection

According to Frank Kutsumoto serial number list we have:

455001-457000,343,18,1,17,2000,1906

You have a decent dial and nice set of hands (bare in mind that spade seconds hand was used in higher grades, btw. is it blue or purple?)

Those 18s are not very popular (at least model 1) and usually you can get it on ebuy with very tired movements. I have seen those dials before.
Something similar is there: http://library.ihc185.com/SB/1917/index.html
and that's closest match Ive found in documentation - there is not much from 1906...

Anyway, you seem to have a nice watch, usually damasking is fading on model 1 movements and your looks sharp. Hard to say if dial is genuine or replacement, sometimes you may see this under dial as replacements looks a bit different, but it still looks good. Case seems a good match for overall look. Regarding hands - good set, Im not sure about seconds hand as Ive seen same sets with ball end seconds hand. If I would have this watch I would keep it Grade 343 was not on approved RR list and I suppose it would never be there. I hope yours is mechanically good as Ive seen few of them butchered which turns out when you overhaul it.

This just my 5-cents, here we have more experienced collectors than I am, and that's a good opportunity to stop being quiet

btw. I just found where I have seen this dial... if you have book by Erni Loga its on back cover in the middle, just different hands

Rafal

Thanks very much for the insights, Rafal. Unfortunately I don't have the Loga book. But on the South Bend research link to the 1917 parts list you sent, I noticed that the only Roman dial shown in the 18s Model 1 section was a 24-hour Canadian version that is otherwise very similar to mine. But in the 16s dial section, one is shown that is identical to mine except for size. Hmmmmm

All three of the hands, including the seconds hand, are matching blue as opposed to purple, and all three are in very nice shape. And you are correct that the movement is sharp as can be, with no fading or wear of any kind.

I still think it is really cool that there were only about 4100 of these movements produced. They may not be popular with collectors generally, but this particular watch is very popular with me. It has a replacement case, and very probably has a replacement dial and/or hands, thus qualifying it as a Frankenwatch poster child. But I like it anyway! I paid $125 for it, so I probably won't spend any more trying to chase down replacement components. Instead, I'll just keep it in my case and marvel at the movement from time to time.

Thanks again, Rafal.

quote:

Do you think this movement would have qualified for RR service at the time it was made? Also, do you think these hands are appropriate for the dial?

I don't believe so since it's made in 1906 and the watch is not an "older" watch that's already been in RR service and "grandfathered" in. It wasn't on any of the "RRA" lists. There is an outside chance that a RR may have been somewhat lenient toward its employees at that point in time [1906] and if it "proved" itself in the timing when serviced it could have been approved on an individual basis, just unlikely on percentages. The hands are "thin spade" style and are OK with the dial. Generally speaking the "bolder" the dial ~ the "bolder" the hands would need to be. When you pull your watch, you want your hands to be the first thing that jumps out at you.

regards,
bb

Thanks much, Buster. Think I'll keep the hand/dial combination just as it is, then.

its definitely worth keeping, the only thing I would do wiht it is to re-polish screws as they always are scratched.