I have a very nice 1890 Elgin Model 5, 18s, full plate watch that which runs flawlessly, when it runs.

Soon after I bought it, I had it serviced by a watchmaker I found on the internet. I have no references for this watchmaker but he has a comprehensive website and, in addition to antique watches, he services ultra-high end high wrist watches. I feel that he is a competent technician.

The point of this post is to try to understand the nature of the problem, not to point fingers or place blame.

After he serviced the watch, it ran perfectly for several days, sitting face up on my desktop, then, suddenly, for no apparent reason, it stopped. I investigated and, when I turned the balance wheel, it would spring back, hit something solid, bounce a time or two, then come to rest.

I E-mailed the watchmaker. He said the watch had become overbanked and that overbanking is usually caused by a watch being jolted sharply (the watch was just sitting on my desktop when it stopped).

I sent the watch back to him, he corrected the problem, I paid him for the additional work, and he returned the watch to me. I wound and set the watch and it ran beautifully for about 24 hours. Sometime during the night, while ticking away on my desktop, it just stopped. Same problem.

I am fully aware of the difficulties that arise when working on 120 year old machinery, however, and I have only an academic understanding of watch works, it seems to me this is caused by a mechanical defect and it should be repairable. If I were a watchmaker confronted with this problem, especially with a watch I had just serviced, I would closely inspect the banking pins, escape lever and all related parts very carefully while I had it apart the second time. If the lever is getting past the banking pins, then some part has to be bent, broken, worn, missing, or mis-adjusted.

I'm afraid that sending it back again, at this point will be counter productive.

The point of this post is two-fold:

1. I would like to better understand the nature of the mechanical problem.

2. I would like to find a way to get this watch running reliably. It's a nice old watch and worth the effort.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Christopher, I have two words of advice for you....Chris Abell....you want it fixed, correctly, this is the man you send it to....

There are 100's of watch makers on the net and they probably know what they are doing to a point, but you will never find any as reliable as our own Chris Abell....I'm in So. Cal. also, but when I need a watch repaired it goes to Texas....only to Texas....

You want it done, then you do this....I promise Chris will do it right and he will tell you exactly what the problem is if you will send it to him....

He is at: www.Abellwatchmakers.com

Regards,

Jerry

Hey Chris !!

When a watch "overbanks", there is a problem somewhere in the train and mechanism When you sent the watch to the repaireman he should have corrected the problem the first time When you sent it the second time, I feel if the repaireman wanted and appreciated your business he would have charged nothing or if a part was needed then he perhaps would have decided to charge you for the replacement part which may have been required initially yet may have been overlooked

I know we have many qualified techs here BUT I don't believe anyone anywhere can diagnose the problem until the watch is on the bench and broken down

That being said, perhaps one of our qualified techs may step in and offer to service your watch for a fee, of course, so that you are able to enjoy your timepiece I question your initial repairperson and the principals

I hope that is of help to you

regards,
bb

Some of the single roller movements that overbank can be a pain too get right,,A few things that can cause the problem is the guard pin too far away from the roller table it needs too be as close as it can and not rub,,also the roller jewel needs too be the correct size not too loose when it enters the pallet fork,also the lock and the release of the pallet has too be right on these which a lot of the times can be adjusted with the banking pins.Also one very imporant thing on these is they have too be in perfect beat.

What happens with these when not set up right is as the mainspring runs down there is less power on the train and the snap on the pallet fork gets weaker and they overbank usally on the last few hours of run time..

Samie, could you explain the "perfect beat" thing?

Does it mean that the roller jewel stares straight at the pallet fork when it's perfectly at rest, so that it's travel in both directions is equal when wound?

Jerry, Buster, and Sammie,

Thank you for your thoughtful responses.

Jerry, I will keep Chris Abel in mind when I need work done (and I always need work done).

Buster, Your take on professional ethics mirrors my own. I apreciate the confirmation.

Sammie, Your technical explanation is supurb. This deffinitely gets into the rehlm of working on 120 year old machinery. As I add up inputs of this nature, I gain a fuller understanding of the nature of the machine.

An expedient way to resolve this might be to find a good running Model 5 BWR movement and switch them out. By the time I sell the old movement for parts, it shouldn't cost too much to do it that way.

I think much of the fascination of this hobby is figuring out how best to utilize the bits and pieces at hand.

Chris

Eric yes if everthing is correct the pallets jewels locking and relesaing as they should etc. on the watch and with no power on the mainspring the pallet fork should be dead center between the banking pins and the roller jewel resting in the center of the pallet fork it should be in beat.

When you listen too a watch and it.s sounds like tock tic instead of tick toc it,s out of beat the ticking you hear is the pallet fork hiting the banking pins side too side if the hairspring is too far one way or the other on the balance (too use simple terms )the swing from center of the balance is not even that causes one of the pallet stones too enter the escape wheel either too quick or not quick enough you are then out of beat.I am not the best at technical answres but hope it helps.

Samie, you did a fine job....even I could understand your explanation.... Especially the part about listening to the tick tock, not the tock tick....

Thanks,


Regards,

Jerry

Got it, Samie; makes perfect sense.

Thanks.

The responses have really expanded my understanding of how an escapement works.

Eric, your comment on perfect beat timing is particularly interesting. I can see how this at-rest alignment and balance of the components is important if the watch is to keep "perfect" time.

It was also mentioned that the Model 5 has a single roller movement. Would it be correct to say that the double roller feature was designed to prevent overbanking?

That's another good question. I collect mostly Seths, which (I think) are all single roller.

Single rollers have a guide pin on the pallet fork, so does the double roller have a second roller jewel in place of the guide pin?

I don't know much about how they work, but after the Train Wreck in Kipton, OH the watch specifications that were developed included the requirement of "Double Rollers", and I think the double roller was supposed to make the watch more shock resistant so as not to duplicate the problem of the watch stopping and starting agian as it did in the Engineers watch that fateful occurance in Ohio....

Speaking of that I have wondered if the watch that Engineer was carrying was ever found and if so what kind of watch was it....

Regards,

Jerry

A double roller watch has a impluse roller table and a saftey roller hence the term double roller,the guard pin engages the smaller saftey roller on a double roller movement.

Jerry the SR->DR I think took place after 1900, most of the early LS 992's were SR where the 990 started out as DR, later the 992 was also a DR. Some RR's allowed SR for a bit past 1900.

Let me give this a "jolt"

The "Double Roller" set up IS a safety feature which most all RR's required around 1900. The "safety feature" of the double roller (if you will), works so that in case the watch receives a shock or sudden jolt, the "guard finger" will contact the table and prevent the fork from going into "overbank" mode or CARDIAC ARREST

The difference between single/double roller is as follows;
-------------------------------------------------
SINGLE(roller fork)- a guard pin
the safety roller and the roller jewel are ONE single table.
--------------------
DOUBLE(roller fork)- a guard finger
the arrangement has an impulse roller table AND a safety roller which = TWO ROLLERS.
-------------------------------------------------
Hope that helps to entertain

regards,
bb

You are exactly correct Claude, I believe "around 1900" is pretty close to the Great Train Wreck of 1891....Hence:

These railroad-grade pocket watches, as they became colloquially known, had to meet the General Railroad Timepiece Standards adopted in 1893 by almost all railroads. These standards read, in part:

"...open faced, size 16 or 18, have a minimum of 17 jewels, adjusted to at least five positions, keep time accurately to within 30 seconds a week, adjusted to temps of 34 °F (1 °C) to 100 °F (38 °C), have a double roller, steel escape wheel, lever set, regulator, winding stem at 12 o'clock, and have bold black Arabic numerals on a white dial, with black hands."

Regards,

Jerry

I guess your definition of close is a bit different and more liberal than mine and saying nearly all is just as liberal. The 990 and 992 started around the same time ~1903, with the 992 being first shipped by a short period (within weeks) and they were shipped with single rollers for a period of time, seems that 1905 sticks in my memory, So from your copy/paste the early 992 lever sets were absolutely not RR approved, many watches like the Elgin grade 150 would not be RR approved, the 149 might have been been since I think it did start with DR but the 150 started as a SR, they started production around 1895. Why would Hamilton in 1903 produce a railroad watch that would not meet railroad requirements. I find it interesting that any watch produced after 1893 without a double roller or adjusted to 5 positions would not be railroad approved. Oh just a note the 149 is consider by many to be RR approved and it winds at the 3 position (hunter) and many hunters made in the 1895-1900 time frame were considered RR approved.
I checked the master records from Elgin and the grade 149 changed to double roller configuration in July 1905, they list the exact serial number to be 10,422,500. This put the DR date around the same time as what I remember Hamilton switching the 992 to double roller, correct date is 1904 serial number 308,701, my memory is a tad off (1 year), the first ones left the finishing room March 1903.