What is the the difference between adjustments and positions?

Some watches show number of positions others number of adjustments.

What value is added to the watch for each?

Particulary interested in 8 adjustments. Does it add a substantial value to the watch?

Watches might have the following 9 adjustments;

heat
cold
isochronism
face up
face down
pendant up
pendant right
pendant left
pendant down

Then some watches might have the following 8 adjustments;

temperature
isochronism
face up
face down
pendant up
pendant right
pendant left
pendant down

The last 5 or 6 adjustments have to do with positional errors and which way the watch is positioned while tested. Selected RRA and/or RRG models were tested in either 5 or 6 different positions.

Some watch companies tried to go one up on other manufacturers by saying, heat and cold, while the others were only saying temperature which we know would be, heat and cold

Adjustments are the accumulation of factors which add up to a certain number of different tests.

Positions always has to do with which way the watch is positioned while being tested.

Most 20th Century requirements to be approved by RR's[RRA] had to be adjusted to at least 5 positions and the 6th position that some RR watches had was always the last one, pendant down.

When brand spanking new, 6 position adjusted watches were state of the art and required much more factory adjusting to live up to that standard before they were shipped out.

regards,
bb

Buster,

Thanks for the clearest explanation I have read to date on this topic. Are you aware of any original documents from Elgin explaining the difference between watches marked 8 adjustments vs. watches marked 9 adjustments?

I know I have seen original Elgin 571 advertisments stating the Elgin 571 was adjusted to 6 positions, even though some are marked 8 adjustments and others marked 9 adjustments. I assume with either marking it is the same watch in terms of adjustments; the difference being the temperature adjustments are stated differently and marked differently.

Additionally, do you know what the specific adjustments were on these Elgin watches from the same series, especially the positional adjustments?

Elgin 572 & 616, marked 6 adjustments

Elgin 573 & 574, marked 5 adjustments

Elgin 575, marked 4 adjustments

Thanks, Joe

Elgin 572- 19J Adj 2-3 Positions
Elgin 573- 17J Adj 2 Positions
Elgin 574- 17J Adj 2 Positions
Elgin 575- 15J Adj 1 Position
Elgin 616- 17J Adj 2-3 Positions

regards,
bb

Thanks Buster.

Can I assume the following are the adjustments?

572 & 616, pendant up, dial up, dial down, isochronism, heat and cold

573 & 574, pendant up, dial up, isochronism, heat and cold

575, pendant up, isochronism, heat and cold

Now, not to muddle the concise explanation I/we desire for - what about the Elginium (and Elnivar Extra) hairspring - not supposed to be affected by temperature - any temperature adjustment possible on these watches when equipped with this hairspring?

Will we ever know what the actual adjustments are on any watch marked with the number of adjustments, or simply with the word 'adjusted'?

Thanks, Joe

I believe with reliable research, company records, and ads from different eras that nearly everything desired can be proven or theories expelled.

Assumptions can get one into many problems and to assume is merely guesswork and unproven.

I am not an Elgin~Master, I merely possess some general knowledge on things horological in nature. I dabble more into Hamilton & Illinois.

A "Master" will be along to assist you soon...



regards,
bb

I agree, better not to assume. Thanks Buster.

I have seen documentation (ads) that stated that all 571's were adjusted to 6 positions but I think the later one split "Temp" out into "Heat" and "Cold" to boost the number of adjustments by one.

You will find Elgin grade 494s that were marked adjusted to 6 positions and "Temp" on the movement somewhere. You will find Elgin 506's marked either adjusted 5 or 6 positions so the 494, 506 and 571 are the only Elgin 16s grades that I can think of that were adjusted to 6 positions. The 478, 590, 540 and 506 were adj 5 positions and would have "Temp" or "Temperature" marked on the movement.

I think the 572 was adj3p since Elgin was trying to sneak it into places where a a3p lever set was still accepted and the grade that the 572 replaced was an a3p movement.

Grades 571,572 and 573 were all lever sets and the 574,575 and 616 were pendant sets.

I think other than possibly the 572, that what Buster mentions is dead on.

Very interesting Claude. Thanks.

I was looking mainly at he Waltham Vanguards. If you look at the Fat Book it shows them as five positions. The stamp on the movement will show 8 adjustments. I am kind of thinking here they mean exactly the same thing?

I think it was a change in description so for a Waltham 8adj=adj5 positions. I tend to think this is a change that happened in and around WWII. Most of the Vanguards I see are marked 5 positions but I have seen later ones marked 6 positions also.

David, I'm not an expert on this subject, especially in reference to your Waltham, but my guess is this is how your 8 adjustments marking is derived;

Adjusted to: 5 positions + isochronism + heat + cold = 8 adjustments

In other words, your 8 adjustment marking includes 5 position adjustments plus 3 additional non-positional adjustments.

Joe I would agree with that for all brands except for the case of Elgin. I have seen documentation that shows the 571 to have been adjusted to 6 positions from the beginning.

If you look at later 478s they were marked "temp" and 5 positions so I think on the first two versions of the 571 those were adj6p and "temp" and on the last version they broke the temp back out to heat/cold.

I think that also causes confusion on the grade 572, in Elgin factory records the 572 was to replace the grade 527 which was 19j ls a3p and if you look at the first 571s then the 572's were a3p also and I don't think the 572 were made into the range of the 3rd version 571 (9adj).

The Elgin 'adjustments' mystery continues to unravel. Thank you very much Claude.