Not sure if some will think I am crazy but I just paid $213.50 for a 12 size Illinois Grade 435 thin model movement.

Until a few years no examples of the 435 were known to exist.I was fortunate enough to find one a few years ago on Ebay in its original 14kt case--310 blocked serial numbers in 4 runs.It is still the only one in an original solid gold case.

I believe the reason it took so long to "discover" a 435 is that there were very few 12 size Illinois collectors.

Since that time several movements have been reported as well as a few in gold filled cases.Grades 437(19j) 438(21j) and the 439(21j Extra) are finished to a high standard compared to the Grade 435.

No ads have ever been seen for Grades 435 through 439 despite the fact that they typically come with magnificient dials and cases.

Its discoveries like the 435 that keeps me in the hunt.
Bob

metal dial for Il 435 marked "Shreve Crump and Low"

Robert,
Of course I don't know about the price, but that sure is an interesting watch. I like the style, and the recent talk about 12s is getting me interested too. I find it hard to switch when I have been looking at Elgins so long, but it's seeing watches here that perk my eyes up for a new look.

You have a very nice looking watch there, Congratulations!

Hi Bob,

Yes I would and have paid over $200 for a 12 size 17J watch. I just purchased a fairly common grade Illinois 12 size 17J (sidewinder) in GF case for around $280, though the reason for the high $ purchase was because of the serial number, it is number 2500000. It is also in fantastic condition. I wont be letting this one go too quickly.

Most of your cost to buy this 435 watch of ebay would probably have been for the 14k case and probably not for the movement as to the un-educated illinois collector this 17J movement would have looked a bit of a run of the mill. These are the times we think to ourselves that 'am I paying too much' for this watch since no one else probabaly new it was a rare one. Hopefully interest does pick up more and more over the years to make all smaller size watches with low prodcution numbers as important as 18 or 16 size watches. I know I see size 6 or 12 size movements that have low production numbers and I will still have a go at buying them as personally we know how important they are. Even the 7 Jewel ones.

While we are talking about 12 sizes. I also just picked up an Illinois 12 size grade 299 21J in a GF hunter for $240. What a great looking spotted movement! It looks like it is in great condition (though I have not received it yet) and I thought this was a fair price for a high grade movement that only had 900 made in the hunter.

Regards,

Nigel Harrison.

Nigel
Sorry about not responsing right away.

Your Il Grade 299 hunter is a great find and a terrific example of why I collect 12 size watches. The grade 299 was Illinois best 12 size movement at the time. Just imagine how expensive a Bunn Special with only 900 serial numbers would go for. I bet the Bunn case goes for almost as much as you paid for the entire watch.

While I would like to have the original case for the Grade 435,I also have one of the few ever found in a 14kt case (which I believe was original). I will probably the case this 2nd mvt in a gold filled thin model case (Marquis Autocrat).

I can only speak for 12 size watches--buy them because you like them not because they are a good investment. With the exception of 23j and a few 21j interest is still small despite the fact that were visually more appealing and made as well or better than most RR watches. Remember I just purchased a 21j Illini that posessed their best case and dial for $600 (with gold over $850 an ounce). The watch sold for $220 in 1925.

I hope others learn your appreciation for these watches.

Bob

Hi Again Bob,

Yes the 12 size is such good value and I will purchase any watches from that size that offer some rarity, quality or mintyness . The fact of the matter is that there were just so many good grade watches in the 12 size that you really could go crazy in trying to purchase them all. I am and avid Illinois collector and there seems to be a ton of 19J and 21J 12 size watches out there just in Illinois! Surely over time the size 12 should become more popular as the larger watches are becoming very pricey for anything with decent quality.

Yes I saw that 21 Jewel Illini you purchased from another thread. That is a great looking watch and yes that dial is just perfection in a metal dial.

I saw a 14k 23J Illini on ebay just in the last week sold for 700 odd dollars. Did you see that one? I was slightly surprised at the price even though I knew it was an Illini and then I realised that only 200 of this specific one were made and I thought that would have been a nice watch to go for if you had the dollars available.

Since I am an avid Illinois collector my next challenge will be to find a 23J grade 299 Illinois, that seems to be close to the rarest 12 size illinois (except for some private label ones - Benjamin Franklin, Ariston Etc.) preferably a hunter. I do have to say I do love the look of some of those highly jewelled 12 size Elgins, I will have to get me some of those ones day, I have had a bid on a few 12 size Elgins but have missed out as I am always after a bit of a bargain and not really wanting to pay top dollar, they aslo usually come in solid gold cases which pushes the price up considerably.

Regards,

Nigel Harrison.

Nigel
You sound like a true 12 size collector.
Your criteria of rarity,quality and minteyness in that order is right on.

Try to buy the better pieces before they become unaffordable.I was able to amass examples of the rarest 12 size with the exception of about 8 or 9.
Almost no one wanted them and I was willing to pay a little more than other collectors.

As to the Il Grade 299 Hunter I have what is believed to be the only intact one (Ariston mvt with an Ariston dial and 18kt Ariston case).A movement is also known.15 years ago I paid over $500 for the watch.The dealer told me I know it is rare but where do I find a buyer.

Bob

Hi Again Bob,

I am actually a bit of an everything collector as long as the rarity, quality and mintyness is there. Yes I do have the pocket watch sickness!!! I have been very much appreciating those 12 sizes more of late though, especially due to Illinois Watch Co having such great pieces.

I would like to get some good examples of Illini's. Like your 21J.

Is your ebay userid 12size by any chance? I have seen this userid out there buying the 12 size watches a lot. (even outbidding me a few times ). How many 12 size watches do you have in your collection Bob?

You are right about buying now as they can only increase in price.

Interesting story on 23J grade 299 Ariston and that was a good buy even for 15 years ago. I guess I need to find myself one of those some where. I have learnt though that something really rare that you think will take you decades to find (for a good price), that once you concentrate on looking for it does not take too long to find one. For example I have only been collecting Illinois watches seriously for about 18 months and already I have managed to get some amazing buys on some rare items. The latest was just a couple of weeks ago where I pickup up a 2 digit serial number 18s Illinois Watch Co (Springfield) Stuart grade. I am always looking for low serial number Illinois watches and have always wanted a first run 2 digit or lower watch from Illinos and now I have got one. Lets see how long the 23J grade 299 will take

Regards,

Nigel Harrison.

Nigel,

Yes 12size is my Ebay name.

I might suggest that you also consider some other companies to form a 12 size collection around.

Find a niche --its a lot of fun chasing down rarities that no one else knows about. For example I have a complete set of 14 and 12 size Lord Elgins.The one that took the longest to find was the 12 size 17j even though the 23j 12 size are significantly rarer.

My personal favorite is Hampden.Most of the watches are very inexpensive compared to other 12 size and many rarities exist.Hampden also made some fantastic dials and cases.

With the exception of the thin models the stated rarity of 12 size Hampdens in Shugarts Price Guide is accurate.

As to my 299 Ariston,you need to consider that at the time only watches such as the 50 Aniv. Gruen were more expensive. Also Ariston was not a familar name.

After getting my 299 hunter I waited 13 years to find a 23j OF Grade 299--production is 230 vs 110 for the Hunter).One (with an Illinois movement)showed up on Ebay in an 18kt case with a Tiffany dial and I bought it.Two weeks later an Ariston Gr 299 23j in a 14kt Ariston case showed up.( I had missed it the first time it was up and it was being resold by another person)Yes,I bought it at the higher price because it completed my Ariston collection of 17j thru 23j.I am still searching for a grade 410 Ariston but have am not sure whether they exist or not.

I hope you are succesfully with your search

Bob

Robert,

I too have seen you bidding on 12 size watches. I am looking at the following bw raymond. Form what I read above maybe i should buy it for the buy it now price? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item...=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=019

Thanks,
Steve Cohen

Steve
Since the case is probably gold filled you might be able to get it below the Buy it Now.

About 10,000 grade 193 were produced of which some were BW Raymonds. They appear often enough on Ebay that you are probably better off trying to bid on it.

Bob

Thanks Robert, I think I'll do that. I didn't realize they come up all the time! I've never seen one in three years on ebay. Maybe I didn't look in the right palace.

Steve Cohen