I have listed this E. Howard on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2901...ame=ADME:X:AAQ:US:11
...and was wondering about the case. Could this be an original combination? I thought it could be because I have seen several others like it. Maybe I'm mistaken. The interesting thing is that the crown button opens the back, not the front, as would be on a normal hunting case.
Thanks!

Jim,

I would have to see this one in person to make an educated determination..
There appears to be an aditional case screw mark by the balance cock ... Is it ?? Does the crown also wind and set the movement as it should ??... More often than not, the fly back rear cover was intended for a key wind or a display bezel and glass for viewing the movement..With all that said, there are no key holes so that is out.. the display back it is not..Dueber was making case at the time......and it does appear the movement fits the case..so my guess it is, if there are no other case screw marks around the rim.....

Thanks for the reply, John...Not any extra screw marks. That is just reflection. In "the book", it discusses that some cases had the key-wind hole filled in on some, although I don't see any evidence of that on this one....interesting

Hi,

I too thought the "reflection" by the balance cock looked very much like an extra case screw mark, and I too am puzzled by the spring-open back, which I have only ever seen before on KW watches. A few things to check:

1) There is no picture of the front of the watch with the bezel up. That would show whether there is (or was) a lever slot there.

2) Does the movement still have its dust ring in place? If so, is it intact, or has it been cut down to fit the movement into the case? If not, would there be room for one if it were present?

3) Is there more than one locating pin hole in the rim of the case? (For that matter, does the movement still have a locating pin?) An extra hole in the case, or a missing pin in the movement, would suggest a replacement case.

4) Is there a set screw in the pendant? I didn't see any, but photos can deceive. If there is one, the case is not original.

5) It is often easiest to find the subtle signs of an expertly filled key hole on the underside of the cuvette.

Some more thoughts: Hunting cases for Howard movements usually have offset back hinges, because they were made prior to 1875 when the prevailing style of cases changed to parallel front and back hinges. In the later parallel style, both hinges were set 180 degrees from (i.e., opposite) the pendant. This case has parallel hinges, strongly suggesting it was always a stemwind case. Similarly, L Size KW Howard movements went out of production long before this particular SW movement, with S# 66,xxx, was manufactured. Thus there is no good explanation for the spring-open back that I can think of, whether the case is original to the movement or even if it isn't.

The Howard Model 1869 (Series V) L Size movement was intended as a hunting case model, although it sometimes does appear in original open face cases. When it does appear in an original open face case, the movement is most often, but not always fitted with a conversion dial so that the pendant is at 12 o'clock. The fact that this movement has a standard hunting configuration dial suggests, but does not absolutely prove that it originally resided in some other case.

Thank you, too, Dr. Geller for your response.
I have included a photo of the front, with bezel open. There doesn't appear to be any missing locator pins nor is there a pendant screw or lever cut. There is an original appearing dust cover on the movement as well.
I do see what may be a filled key-hole on the underside of the cuvette (or I may be seeing things). There is a small area that is slightly more porous than the rest of the surface.
In all, there aren't any tell-tale signs that rule out the cases' originality.

HI John.

I assume you meant a dust ring on the movement, rather than a dust cover.

Indeed this case is a puzzle. Its overall shape appears consistent with it having been made for a Howard movement, and the apparent fit with the L Size movement it currently houses loooks pretty good. But open face Howard L Size Model 1869 cases are unusual even if not unheard of, as are HC dials on OF watches, although I have seen correct, original examples of both.

If there is indeed a filled hole on the underside of the cuvette, that would explain the spring-open back. Cases for L Size Howard KW movements were also more likely to have been open face than cases for Howard L Size SW movements. This is because the Model 1869 SW movement was intended as a hunting configuration by virtue of the placement of the winding stem relative to the 4th wheel. Conversely the KW version of the Model 1869, having no stem, was uncommitted. Alternatively, the case may have been converted from hunting to open face at the same time that the the KW-to-SW conversion was made, as key winding was waning in popularity at about the same time hunting cases were going out of style. The fact that the case is 18K rather than 14K would also be consistent with it originally having been a keywind case, if indeed it was, as a 14K keywind case would have been unusual. On the other hand, I have seen only very few keywind cases with parallel back hinges before, so this fact may militate against the case having originally been KW. Howard probably only made a couple of thousand L Size KW movements and surviving L KW cases are scarce, converted or otherwise, so this too may make it more likely that the case originally was SW. But if so, the spring-open back is rather inexplicable. Thus I can come up with no explanation for this case and its peculiar features that makes me completely comfortable.

Epilogue on this one: It sold for ~$200 less than it would be worth pounded up into a little ball or melted. (Don't worry, I am not considering that). But, it certainly is an example of why people scrap cases, don't you think?

That is a shame. Despite all its weirdnesses, I was thinking the case was probably a Howard case that either still had its original movement, or more likely, was a KW case that had a SW movement put in it back in the 1800's during its historical life as a working timepiece.