Ed Ueberall mentioned in another thread I started cost of watches produced during the Depression were lower in price than those sold earlier.

I would think the number watches manufuctured during the Depression were close to nil. And, if that were the case, wouldn't the watches that WERE manufactured be rarer as a result? Anyone researched this? Anyone with information regarding Depression era watches? Are they rarer?

Stephanie O'Neil
NAWCC Member 143979

I have a B. W. Raymond, grade 494 made in 1931/32.
It is 23 jewels with wind indicator. Elgin made 5000 of them, so they are not that rare. The watch was sold cased, and in 1932 the advertised price was $90. Very pricey for the period.

I think a good example can be seen in the relative rarity of the various Hamilton "Elinvar" models. Those were produced only during the depression, and they're not particularly common (especially the more expensive ones).

Try to find a Hamilton 950 "Elinvar" or a Ball 998 "Elinvar" ........... or for that matter, an Illinois "Elinvar" Bunn Special.

===============

Steve Maddox
President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas
IHC Charter Member 49

Jerry,
I presume you mean that your Raymond is from a depression-era run of 5,000 movements. Many collectors (myself included) have noted that when Elgin assigns large blocks of numbers like this it does not mean that they were all produced at once or even in the same year. For some grades it appears that large portions of the number block may have never been made. It would be interesting to check with Kent and Ed to see how many serial numbers they have recorded from your production run and if they are clustered at the low end of the numbers.
--- the other Jerry

Jerry T: My Raymond is serial number 33,595,687. This dates the watch to 1931/32. It is from the first run of 1000. This means that maybe there were 4 more runs of 1000 in the heart of the depression. Were they all made? I don't know.

PS, I still have that 12 size Interstate Chronometer.

There were five runs of 1000 each for the Grade 494. Here is what we have in our database for each run:
33595001 - 33596000 11 examples range 100 to 882
34682001 - 34683000 10 examples range 233 to 907
34766001 - 34767000 17 examples range 032 to 1000
34900001 - 34900100 14 examples range 022 to 945
34948001 - 34949000 13 examples range 140 to 994

It sure looks to me that all 5000 were made. Now, here is the strange part: For the last four runs, we have NO other RR grade watches of any other grade in-between these runs of Grade 494. A check of the grades made in this range confirms that the Grade 494 was the only standard watches that Elgin made during this period.

Ed Ueberall
NAWCC 49688
IHC Member 34
The Escapement

Many of these RR movements are from this era... such as 992's in certain factory cases and the earliest 992E... We see a lot of them moving around for sale.... as also Illinois watches, even though the Hamilton owned Illinois by this time...

I would think the 950E and 998E were post depression, sure the economy may not had rebounded in full by the 1937 introduction, but things should have been better in comparison to the 31-33 era. [gotta brush up on history now ]


One would think they would have inventoried them for later sales...I am certain there were many movements in production that were 'frozen' in the production process.

This is indicated by some of the date ranges seen in the Hamilton serial number list...

I will try to find an excerpt from an article about Illinois that I think stated some figures for this time.... but it may not be related to this subject..

Interesting: according to Michael Harrold’s American Watchmaking 1850-1930, production of jeweled watches had fallen more than 75% from its peak in 1913 by the time the Great Depression began.

Jerry F.,
Thanks for the info on your 1931/32 BWR.

Steve M.,
Interesting that Elinvar models were produced only during the depression. Thanks.

Thanks Jery T, Jerry F & Ed.

Terry H.
Thanks for your opinions and info.

Stu,
Intersting statistic.

Stephanie O'Neil
NAWCC Member 143979

Some of the greatest pocket-watches ever made were produced during times of economic decline. Today, their high quality and short supply sends prices ever-higher. Terry makes a good point about how long it took some depression-era watches to sell. The 23J examples of which he speaks were a tough sell then and highly sought after today. One note, the rustless anti-magnetic hairspring swept the industry and all quality watches from the 1930s-on were so equipped.

Rugged, reliable, "a thing of beauty is a joy forever" comes to mind...

According to the Inflation Calculator those 1931 $70 dollars are $726 2002-dollars, still high but sure we can make a deal!

Lindell,
Thanks for the picture of your beautiful depression era Bunn Special. I particularly enjoyed viewing the outer-box.



Stephanie O'Neil
NAWCC Member 143979

You're a generous man, Carlos! Thanks Buddy, I'll consider your offer... OK I thought it over... NO! But seriously, when you consider the $495.00 cost of a new car back then and how little people earned, the $70.00 price of this watch was a hefty one not really reflected in that analysis.

Stephanie, this particular model, the 163A Type II B was made for but a short time in 1931 with only 1,800 produced. You're right to examine the outer box closely as we rarely see such things. Notice the Illinois Observatory on the top along with the words, "The Illinois Watch, Fine Quality Since 1870" and "Springfield, Illinois USA" proudly put forward.

To many of us some of these watches produced in small numbers during the 1930s represent the last Great American Premium RR Grade Pocket Watches. What would follow would be exceptionally strong and dependable timekeepers, but the outrageous style and sheer beauty of watches like this one would never be equalled. They continue to fascinate us like no others can.

And we can be glad that some, like this one were preserved for us to enjoy!

Lindell

As for the "inflation calculator," I've always wondered about the accuracy of those. Using the numbers from the example above, a new car today should cost $5,134. Needless to say, that isn't the case, and cars today are less expensive to manufacture than they've ever been before.

At about that same time, "unimproved" rural land in Arkansas could be purchased for less than $5 an acre (in fact, my grandfather purchased some for $2 an acre). Again, according to the "inflation calculator," land that was formerly $5 an acre, should be selling for $51.86 per acre today, but that isn't the case! The cheapest "unimproved" land I've heard of selling recently has been in the $700 per acre range.

My father assures me that in the 1930s, it was possible to purchase a very nice hamburger here for $0.05. Again, by the inflation calculator, that same burger today should cost about $0.52, but I can't think of any place where that would be true. The cheapest hamburgers I can think of anywhere are about $1, and a really "nice" one will typically cost $3 to $8, just depending on the establishment.

The price of gold in the 1930s was in the $20 per ounce range. The inflation calculator would tell you that it should be selling today in the $207 range, but it hasn't been that low in decades. Today, it's trading in the near $400 range.

From what I know of the watch business, IF (and that's a big "if"), a watch equivalent to the Bunn Special above could be produced today, it couldn't be profitably sold for less than $2500.

=============================

SM

Ok Steve your calculations are sound, seems that my deal for Lindell´s out-of-this-world watch could not go through this time , I have to look for other calculator... I will keep a copy of the pic in my PC

WOW, Lindell, GREAT WATCH........

Wow – Steve’s analysis is really interesting!

Steve points out that cars and unimproved rural land in Arkansas and hamburgers and gold and pocket watches have all appreciated faster than the CPI – sounds right to me!

If we assume that 1) the Inflation Calculator reflects the CPI as accurately as possible; and 2) the Inflation Calculator doesn’t make calculation errors – then a lot of things must also have appreciated slower than the CPI.

Can we point to any examples??

(Okay, this isn’t exactly about PW’s [let alone depression era PW’s] – but it is really interesting!)

....Lindell...just a magnificent (my highest superlative) timepiece!!!noticed too, the inclusion in the collectible 'mix', of the original box 'et al'...I've only recently come to realize the importance of collecting the original 'accessories' (boxes, warranties, pouches etc) to these marvelous 'micro-machines'...for example, just last week I won a Hamilton 4992B in excellent condition @Ebay for 'book' value...almost hidden in the deal was the almost 'ho-hum' and 'btw' inclusion of the original bakelite flip top 'cigarette'box complete w/linen liners (in near-mint condition)...while the auction was still 'live' I researched the watch case and found that they alone brought $300+ on Ebay...needless to say, I bid and, determined to win, was happy at my
good fortune and wise purchase...what it all renders down to is that should I want to sell the case, I would have, in effect, bought a 'fine' 4992B at a 'yard sale' bargain price...Jim

Did the 4992B come in the "cigarette box"? I thought that this was principally a military contract piece, and I would be surprised if the government specified such a box.

...Jerry...the seller indicated to me after the sale that he was selling the watch for a friend and that he (the seller) was going to enquire about the 'provenance' and history of the watch and let me know...like you I had heretofore only related this type of box w/rr 940s, 50s and 92s...will report back when I know more...Jim C

Thought this was interesting. A letter mailed in 1883 was only 3 cents. 120 years later only 37 cents. What a bargain.....

To answer the question on the 4992b...

I have the opinion they did not come in the filp top box....

They were shipped, and stored in a pull-apart cardboard box.

this one has the matching numbers on the back, along with the original dent

box end... remember what i said about STORAGE?

AND FINALLY THE BACK



ATTN: We need a way to upload multiple images in one post!

this thread is really moving on: started in the depression era and is now at the end of WW II, we need one of 50´s next...

A letter mailed in 1883 was only 3 cents. 120 years later only 37 cents. What a bargain.....

Unfortunately, a first class letter mailed in 1976, however, was just 10 cents. That's an increase of 7 cents during the first 93 years, and 27 cents during the last 27 years.

===================

SM

This would not download on my post the first time.
This is one that didn't get "lost" in the mail..

....well, I've just received that 4992B & 'box' that I referred too earlier and you guys were right on...the bottom of the box has a label which reads: (sorry but my camera doesn't doesn't have good macro' capability) "Hamilton Grade 992B
21 Jewel Railroad Special
10K Gold Filled
Model No. A Dial HG"
...still waiting more info from owner (wasn't the Ebay seller)...Jim C

on a positive note, most labels on the bottom of these boxes are missing...

I have not seen a label on the bottom of one of these that has the serial number on it... usually the s/n is on the outside box.

...Terry, have you seen one of these, what I would think was a strap or lift attached w/a gold paper seal to the back of one of the linen liners to the box?...Jim C

Yes,

The 1941 introduction ad states

"factory sealed for your protection"

this 'cellophane' ribbon with the 'gold' threads was attached to the inserts, and threaded over the top of the watch. one had to 'break the seal' to remove the watch...

The movements were cased and timed at the factory, so in a 'perfect world' all one had to do was to 'wind er up'... but most were checked out before going to the customer to ensure no shipping damage occured.

many of the ribbons did not survive, as did the outer boxes with the labels.

This is an image of the cataloge page, courtesy of Jim Haney click the link