Got this in today. What a beauty. It is an Elgin W.H. Ferry kw ks Grade 17, model 1, class 4 11 jewel 18 size watch sn 340336 with only 500 total production. Two runs. One run of 300 and one run of 200 both in the same year of 1874. The price guide does not differentiate between this W. H. Ferry grade on the other W.H. Ferry grades so I don't really know how to determine the value on this grade 17 with only 500 made. But I am happy I am one of the 500 who own one. Runs fine.

Harry

Nice looking movement Harry!

Thank you Dennis. I like these old solid balances.

Nice one Harry!

Where did/do you get the info on the Elgins?

Regards,
Larry

Thanks Larry,

I checked two sources, There is an Elgin serial number search engine link under the serial number section and I also checked the Pocket Watch Data base. They both had the same info but the Elgin site listed the whole class.

Harry

Thanks Harry.

I look at the Elgin database, and they are always one year off from the pocket watch database. That's why I always go with the info here whenever I can.

Regards,
Larry

Excellent and significant find, Harry. This is the first W.H. Ferry movement I have seen outside the Grade 55 group classification.

The two runs of Grade 17 were produced during a period of major development and transition for Elgin in the mid-1870s. The company had just introduced nameless grades, signaling a move away from the traditional grades named in honor of directors and executives. A new charter had been adopted to reorganize the company under a new name, from “National Watch Company” to “Elgin National Watch Company.” And, an office in London had been opened, allowing the company to introduce movements produced for the English market.

As a result of these changes, there are several low-production grades introduced during this time that have been challenging for researchers.

#340336 occurs within the first run of Grade 17 [340,301-340,600], and shortly after the last run of Grade 55 Ferry movements [327,001-327,051]. The primary difference between the Grade 17 and the Grade 55 Ferry is that the Grade 17 features a pair of jewels on the escape and 4th wheels while the Grade 55 Ferry is only jeweled on the top plate. According to material catalogs, the Grade 17 is also fitted with a screw-set dial and a slightly different arbor cup.

There were 11,777 Grade 55 Ferry movements manufactured from c.1869-1874. The low production of Grade 17 movements introduces a challenge in estimating production figures for Grade 17 movements marked “W.H. Ferry,” as these two runs are simply designated as “17” in the early serial tables. These runs could be mixed or exclusively marked with “W.H. Ferry.”

Either way, your watch provides fantastic insight into the production and characteristics of the Elgin Grade 17. Thank you for sharing your discovery.

Yea Larry the year is not that critical to me since everyone always say that the year can be off a year or two. 1874/1875. I am more interested in all the other information. I have a H.H. Taylor that the pocket watch data base says 1871 and the Elgin data base says 1872 BUT I found some more information on the web that suggest Elgin set aside some serial numbers to work on the transitional movements (which this H.H. Taylor is) and the transitional movements did not actually start coming out until 1874 which would make the Elgin National dial it has correct. So I mainly use the sites for information rather than years of manufacture.

Harry

Thank you Nathan for the wonderful information about Elgin and the W.H. Ferry 17 grade. I do know that Elgin was doing several things in the mid 1870's besides changing from National Watch Co. to Elgin National Watch Co. Elgin was also experimenting with there transitional movements. I have a H.H. Taylor transitional movement with the slider lever. I have found out that during there production of 9000 H.H. Taylor transitional movements they had three different transitional designs. The first design was pendant wind and key set of which around 650 where produced. The next was the pendant wind and lever set (sliding lever) followed by the more accepted pendant wind lever set (pull out lever). How many slider (like mine) versus pull type lever sets I have not found the answer to yet.

Thanks again Nathan for the information. Being a Hamilton collector I know little about Elgin's.

Harry

These big old Elgin keywinds are fun to carry too! I carry my 1878 11j Elgin 'Advance' model 1 quite often, and it keeps decent time over several days before resetting.

My two 15j 1869 H. H. Taylor's do a bit better.

They weren't atomic clock accurate, but then in those days, they didn't HAVE to be.

VERY nice find, Harry!

Regards! Mark

I know this is an "old" thread and I am not a watch man per se but I do own one of these pocket watches,,,a Grade 17, sn 340477,,I woul like to get an idea as to the watches value before I consider selling...thank you.....Matt. It worked when I bought it but I think needs a cleaning.... not bad for a nearly 150 year old watch.

thank you ffor any help...

Nice find and thank you for showing us. I'm always after these obscure later 1870s grades. Harry's was the only gr17 I've seen.

Since Harry's original post we've also identified two obscure grades like this marked M.D. Ogden. The grades 18 and 19. Both low production and both have multiple variations! Jeweled in pairs like yours, but with a Bi-metallic balance. 18 is model 1(key), 19 is model 2(stem). I'll stick a picture in the early Elgin stemwind thread.



I love this stuff! Thanks again for showing it. Sorry I am unable to give you a monetary value.

thanks or the info Rick

Glad I logged on today to see this thread! Thanks for posting Matthew, and thanks for the info Rick. Just got this grade 55 in a case, missing a few screws as you can see but other than that ready to carry or hangout on my desk at work! 1867 I believe. Had an interesting service marking on it, looks like it was stamped with “Burt’s Sept 5 ‘64” on the inside of the bottom plate. I can post a pic of that if anyone’s interested. Would love to see if anyone else has a watch that Burt worked on.

Ryan,

Nice looking watch! Your watch is not a grade 17 like the above, but it is originally a W.H. Ferry grade. In later serial number lists, these are lumped together with other grades to make the grade 55. Grade 55 actually mixed several grades together of the same class of material (Ferry, Laflin, and Ryerson). Made it easier for parts and repair. Just think.... when made the serial number lists they were not worried about collectors 100 years later, they were worried about ease of parts identification and repair!

I did a count from the 1896 Elgin list and got 11765 serial numbers for the original Ferry grade.

The confusion with the earlier grades and numbers comes because Elgin did not start using grade numbers untill 1875, then much later went back and gave numbers to the earlier named grades.

W.H. Ferry rolled of the line in 1869. So it's a couple years later than you mention. I would put yours in 1869.

Your serial number is VERY early in Ferry production. It's from the very beginning of the first run. 51068 if I'm reading it correctly. The first Ferry is 51,001. Before someone tell me that there are lower serial numbers of this grade, there absolutely are, let me explain. They are private labels and presumably ran concurrently with these larger runs of Ferry marked movements. There are 50 W.H. Ferry movements in the 30,xxx range broken up into small runs of a few here and there.


Anyways, congrats on your great early National Watch Co Pocket watch! Enjoy it!

Burt's patent pinion is the means of disconnecting the mainspring barrel from the center wheel in case of a spring failure. In this case the center wheel gear and pinion come apart to protect the rest of the train from damage.

Here is a link to the patent for a better explination.
https://pocketwatchdatabase.co...atch-friction-pinion

As for the value I have no idea. There were so few of these made and so few surface now days that there is no history of the purchasing over the years. The price guide lumps them all together by jewel count not by grade. Yours is the only one I have seen besides mine and they are out of the same run. To get top dollar you would have to sell it to someone that knows about this watch and is looking to buy one. I purchased mine for well under $200 in 2018 and the prices on pocket watches have really dropped. Since so few people know of this watch you probably can not get much for it but good luck should you decide to sell it.

Looks great I hope you sell it!

Harry

me too... I need to move! and anything helps

You purchased yours in 1918, Harry? No WONDER you have such a large watch collection!!

Regards! Mark

Oooops! Living in the past Mark. I corrected it. Thank you. It now reads 2018.

Harry

Rick, pardon the late response. Thanks a ton for all of this information. The low serial number makes it ever more special to me. Also how funny about the patent, I was thinking 1964 not 1864!