Aloha, I have acquired a Ball Elgin 17 jewel ORRS, OF watch that has engraved on the barrel bridge "5 Positions". I have inspected many, many Ball Elgin ORRS 17J and 21J movements and I have never seen this engraving before on a single movement. I am positive from the gold lettering and comparing the type face with the other engravings that this is factory original. The dial is a Ball ORRS 24 hour dial. I would like to receive replies from the ihc185 members if there is anyone who has seen this annotation on a Ball Elgin ORRS movement or have like specimens in their collections. Mahalo, Fred

A picture would be good of that "5 position" marking Fred, also I would be lifting the barrel bridge to check the serial number as well.

Mahalo for the suggestion, Bila. Much appreciated, Fred

Aloha, Herewith is a picture of the movement with the "5 Positions" engraving. Mahalo,

Movement Number 12279684

It is legitimate, if you notice you will see that it is slightly off center and the font seems odd but starting around 12M you will see this in a spotty way appearing on 341's, 370's and a few other 18 sizes like the 149/348. I have a few like this that Elgin just stamped "5 Positions" on the plates somewhere. it must have been a transitional stamping because the later 370 were adapted and more stylish.

Mahalo Claude, I appreciate your information and insight. I have been advised that this variant may have been used on Canadian export Ball Elgins but this is the first Ball Elgin I have seen with this engraving. I am curious if any of the IHC185 members have or have seen any Ball Elgins with the "5 Positions" on their watches. Thank you, again. Aloha, Fred

Again getting back to my comment, the stamping that is on your Ball is found on other Elgins so I do not think for any reason that it was just done for Ball Elgins. My 341 has a 24 hr dial but none of the other ones that I have that are stamped this way have a 24 hour dial so I doubt it was a "Canadian Export" stamping since there were probably some East coast RRs that were pressing for the adj5p being marked around the time that Elgin was in the 12-14M time frame.

As I understand things the requirement for a railroad watch to show the positions adjustment came into being about 1905.

So, if you check the manufacture date of a few of these movements (or any other manufacturer) that may provide an answer.

I have no documentation handy to give my 1905 assertion any credence but will post if I find it.

12M for Elgin was in the 1905-1906 range, since the requirement was not universal the lines that were probably in the Midwest and east coast which was more on the influence of Mr. Ball may have started requiring this. The stampings were not just as a run from the grades that I have that are marked this way but more added on an adhoc basis. The stamping looks like it was an added later but the looks are consistent between the ones I have and look like the on the Ball pictured. My 341 photos used to be up on here but once American Greeting decided to cast aside Webshots picture hosting all those uploads were lost.

I have seen some Elgin 21J No. 349's that had a 5 positions marking added on to the barrel plate, much like Fred's Elgin Ball.Looks perfectly legit to me too.Done to satisfy the new regulations.They probably had unfinished or unsold movements in the vault and this brought them up to the new specs.

Aloha Claude, Lorne, and Theodore, thank you very much for sharing this important information. As I mentioned, I have inspected a great number of Ball Elgin movements and have never seen one with the "5 Positions" on the movement which persuades me to believe that Claude's suspicion that they were so engraved on an adhoc basis is probably correct. I, too, feel it is totally legit and, frankly, scarce. I am pleased to own it. Again, thank you, all, for your input and sharing of comments and opinions. Mahalo nui, Fred

Fred
Certainly not an expert, tho I have seen the Ball-Hamilton marked with five positions.
Maybe the first year would be interesting to discover? 1902?


Regards
My Ball-Hamilton

Aloha Mike, thank you for the photograph with the annotation on the movement of "5 Positions" which looks exactly like the engraving on my Ball Elgin. BTW, that is a beautiful watch. Knowing what year this started is anyone's guess. Again, mahalo for the post, Fred

In some cases the watch might have been in service but needed "5 position" markings to satisfy the RR line requirements. Sometimes you will see a watch like the grade 150 which would have been in the 1895-1897 range marked so in some cases the owner could have sent it back to Elgin to be marked to satisfy the RR lines requirements. One example you will see this adhoc marking is on the grade 370, normally it would have been marked "Adjusted" on the balance cock with no further adjustment markings then later you see this adhoc stamping at various locations with the balance cock still showing "Adjusted" engraved on it then later you see a style dmk effect change on the balance cock that is no longer marked "Adjusted" and a more stylized "Adjusted 5 Positions" marking on it. You see this on many of Elgin's higher grades with little to no rhyme or reason to it from run to run or even within a run.

Thanks Lindell,
For the record, Tom sold that Ball from his site. It is not mine, the pic was borrowed from the thread for discussion. Very nice watch, hopefully it is ok to copy photos like that.
Mike

Aloha Mike, Lindell, and Claude. Thank you for the very interesting and informative posts. Excellent discussion. I tend to think that Lindell's theory that the Ball Elgin I have was marked with "5 positions" post manufacture is accurate. As I said previously I have inspected quite a few Ball Elgin movements and this is the only one I have seen with this marking validating, to me anyway, Lindell's theory and it is a one-off specimen. Frankly, I also agree with Lindell about wanting to collect variants that surface and that is why I wanted this Ball Elgin to begin with. To date, I have not heard from any ihc185 member who has a similar specimen so I tend to think this is a scarce variant. Does this add value? I believe that depends on the individual collector and their desire to add it to their collection. For me the answer was "yes". Anyway, I love the complications that this circumstance presents. Again, mahalo for the great posts. Fred

Collecting is alive and well.
Fred you are right on, the Elgin question is unanswered.
The quest continues.
Happpy gear meshing!
Mike

Aloha Mike, thank you for the final thoughts. If I hear of any other Ball Elgins or see any other Ball Elgins with the engraving of "5 positions" I will let everyone in ihc185 know. Have a great day, Fred

If I may add, Lindell's width of knowledge is invaluable to these Ball discussions! Always a good read! Thanks 185!

William

Aloha William, You got that right. Lindell is amazing when it comes to knowledge of everything Ball! Have a great day and Mahalo, Fred