I have bought a fairly common Waltham, a simple 1883 No. 1, 7j, in decent conditions. I sometimes make attention to the movement, but I overlook the dial & case (mainly when there are just a few dollars in the game, of course) and so I ended up with this thing: there is no seconds hand and the style is rather (to me) peculiar. Could you kindly give me some informations on such a look ?

Mario, that beautiful hand-drawn dial only teases my imagination about the movement. How about a serial number at least?

Of course, my Master (I'll keep on saying I have learnt a lot from you, and I do think I'm not alone). The S/N is 5787591 : i have not attached a picture of the movement because it's absolutely plain, as far as I can see, a basic 7j 1883.

Have a nice day, David

I don't know if it's common or not, Mario - but I definitely like that dial/hands combo. If you ever decide to part with it, please let me know .

Hi, Eric: in my opinion the movement is quite common, not the watch. I forgot to mention that it is cased in a SILVERIDE case, with screwed front and back and the size is noteworthy, 51.76 mm 2.2472" diameter by 21.8 mm or 0.869" thickness, and a sizable weight.

I'm going to publish it on my site, http://www.orologi-da-tasca.me.uk, unfortunately all in Italian, with a full gallery. You'll find it in a day or two under the "Orologi Americani a Piastra Chiusa 1854-1900" (i.e. "US PWs with full plate, 1854-1900") menu item. The mailbox of the site is orologidatasca@yahoo.com.

Kindest regards

Mario, That is definitely a basic movement; 1891 production of Gilded, unregulated, Grade 1, 7 Jewel Pendant wind and Pendant setting with a total production of 545,200. The second highest single model/grade production of the Waltham Watch Company.

Is it possible this is a Monk's watch? The dial is an "artistically plain design".

I had a New York Standard a while back with an identical dial. The NYS was in a sterling silver British style case,hallmarked Birmingham. I have seen other watches from England with those very large numerals.

Is the movement open face or Hunter. If Hunter this could be a dial to change to open face. I know these dials were available aftermarket.
Doug

Thanks, gentlemen.

Well, the PW came from UK and I have had in the past others with the same quadrant style (I remember a very nice Moeris and a Prima such), all having that big, solid case style too. There should have been a special "niche" in UK for such watches, with
-very heavy case
-simple latin numerals quadrants, big numbers
-large hands
-no seconds hand
this reminds me a little Webb C. Ball's rules, or, more precisely, Ball's attitude towards a standard, but I can't go any further.
A "Monk's watch" says David: well, something like that, a watch done for some special user or purpose, I myself have seen too many of those not to think that there is a reason below that peculiar style.
Thanks for any help, and, please, give a look to http://www.orologi-da-tsca.me.uk

ops http://www.orologi-da-tasca.me.uk ... sorry

As I promised, a full gallery about this PW has been published at Waltham 1883- No1. If you have some time, please check it.

THANKS !

In most instances, an open faced watch with a dial lacking sub seconds, involves a hunter movement. Using a conventional dial [sub seconds at 6 o'clock] results in what is euphemistically termed a 'side winder' - a phenomenon all to prolific on ebay. The alternate avenue is to have the sub seconds at 3 o'clock - a practice adopted by by E. Howard & Co when casing stem wind series IV hunter movements in open face cases. A significantly smaller number of Waltham, JP Reed, Rockford and Lancaster watches have been seen with this format. I am attaching a Rockford illustrating that alternate avenue of which I speak. Yours is a legitimate and desirable combination.

Thanks, Desmond.

In any case, however, this movement is an OC, according to the Gray Book, and this fits with observations according David post on how to determine OC from HC movements, and so the seconds hand should be at its place, at 6 hours.

As Mario states this production is posted on Waltham Production records as an Open Face movement. I hold that this is specially packaged for some very specific user purpose. The thought of the Monk's Watch was a philisophical presumption about the unimportance of seconds of time to many "men of the cloth".

David, to me the idea seems very interesting, but a question arises : are there monks in UK after Queen Elizabeth Ist reign ? Well, with some research it comes out that Catholic Regular Clergy was back active in UK ... starting the second half of XIX Century, so the data and the dates fit, and big, easily read numerals seem to me useful in the subdued light of a cloister, isn't it ?

Since we're just speculating, let me add that since this watch was produced and shipped to the UK during Victorian times, just about EVERY place you worked in England at that time had limited lighting, and with the daily fogs they experienced from the coal smoke etc, it was a VERY dark town at any time of the day.

I'd say a clerk in London in the 1800's would have been tickled pink to have had a watch with that kind of dial to read in his dark office by candle light.

As a side note, this thread inspired me to pull out my 18s Illinois 11j 1882 keywind to carry today. Thanks for the inspiration, Mario!

Regards! Mark

Desmond,
Here's a Rockford conversion dial I have.

Thank you Brian. I believe Mark has posited a quite reasonable theory.

Thanks to all ! BTW it occurs to me that really seconds hand is useless in a low lighted environment (well, I'm not just that eagle-eyed guy...), and that case metal for such PWs is mainly a silver imitation ... a sensible all round solution for people working and living inside, the other solution around is to have a large seconds hand, and there is on more tipical British PW, the center seconds. I should say both solutions for the working classes, the wealthy gentleman could do with his silver hunter, sitting in a pocket of his waistcot (this reminds me David Niven and "Around the World in 80 Days" ...)

Mario, I too have seen other watches with the beautiful large Roman dial. Several European and another Waltham and a Hampden 11 jewel. I was told some years ago by a now deceased optometrist and watch collector that these dials were for people with limited vision and for those working in bad light such as a night watchman. A great looking dial.

I've only got one watch with the heavy Roman numerals.

I sent it to Chris, and he went at it with hammer and tong.

Gentlemen, have a nice Sunday (here is 8 AM, now).

Richard "I was told some years ago by a now deceased optometrist and watch collector that these dials were for people with limited vision and for those working in bad light such as a night watchman" ... indeed, it do seems that low light is the key reason for such a look, there do is a difference between numerals of a "standard" quadrant like Eric's and the ones of this simplified vesrion, and hands are according bigger.

Eric, I am a fan of Chris too but this time I'm not 100 % sure as I have seen a lot of gilt hands on UK exported and, more importtant, UK made watches, with UK made cases: on a 1878 Martyn Sq. I would have retained the gilt ones, even if mine, http://www.orologi-da-tasca.me...to-maggio-1877.html, just a bit earlier, has blued ones.

Thanks a lot and kindest regards to all !