Attached is a picture of a 21j 18s Elgin that from the serial number turns out to be a 3rd run 150. It is a lever set, it is not a conversion lever set and does not have the pendant set relief machining on the upper pillar plate that pendant set 150's and conversion 150/277 have. The next post shows a more convential lever set conversion and even though this 150 is from the 7875 block of serial numbers it also checks out as a grade 150

data for this watch

Serial Number SN Range RunQty Name Year grade size code jewels Adj/reg/etc.
-------------- -------- ------ ---- ---- ----- ---- ------ ------ ------------
6434432 6434001 1000 ? 1895 150* 18s ofn5p 20-21j A-A5P
3431 of 7816 in grade; 8433 of 21 jewels

Here is my other lever set grade 150, you can see this was a converted pendant set 150 by the fact there is still relief in the top pillar plate shoulder for the pendant set mechanism. The relief slot is located near the 1-2 minute position, slightly to the right of the pendant.

If you look at the pivot screw for the lever you see on the second picture the relief slot is slightly to the left, you can also clearly see the mounting areas for the pendant mechanism that was replaced by the new mechanism making this watch a lever set 150. The serial number is clear 7875650 and from the Elgin master records for the 277 this serial number is not on the list but it is clearly a lever set that has been converted from a pendant set.

Now back to the first picture, it is clear this watch was never pulled from an existing 150 pendant set and converted as the 277s were. So my question are both of these watches grade 150's as the serial numbers would suggest or is the second 150 picture an undocumented 277? The first watch is also not a jeweler frankenwatch special since it shows no grade 150 pendant set machining remainders. Does that make this watch a prototype for the 181? If someone has a pendant set 150 available to post this same area for comparison? I will pull my 181 and photograph it.

Here is the grade 181 as promised. On everyone of these watches the numbers match so no mix-master watch repairs. As you can see the 181 looks a great deal like the watch in the first picture. The only really strange item is the location of the return spring seat, on the 181 it is fully machined, on the first picture it is only partially machined you can see a center section that was not machined out.

Claude, you have documented an interesting subject and probably confirmed what Wayne's data base suggests, that is that 277's are basically lever set G=150's....

Without seeing an actual g=277 for comparison, it is obvious the #2 photo has been modified to be a lever set, but that doesn't say automatically that it was a 277 to start with....could have been but not for certain....

The 181's & 277's start out the same, as class 65 movements while the 150's are class 7 movements....and I don't know the relationship of the two classes one to the other....

Thanks for showing this because it is certainly an interesting subject and one we don't discuss enough here....

Regards,

Jerry

Jerry I tend to think that the list shown on Wayne's site is the correct list for grade 277's, I had heard that Elgin offered to refit grade 150's to lever set at a cost. So I suspect any other lever sets that have the remants of the pendant set mount points and relief slot in the pillar plate area were factory retrofits from customers, so on my second lever set I really don't think it is a grade 277 but a customer retrofit. On my first lever set that looks much like my 181 I tend to think it was one of a few prototype models that Elgin made for the grade 181, the serial number was way before the first 181 and also before the 277's. Most of the people that have lever set 150's and have checked imply they are like the modified version. I guess one could call them type one and type 2, no one seems to comment much so it is hard to get much feedback.

Claude, could you show me the bridge plate view of each of these movements, please...?

I have an idea but I need to see the other side of each movement....something is not right....

Thanks,

Jerry

This is the bridge view of the 7875650 converted lever set. I can pull the dial off but I have checked it more than once and the numbers match. On all watches shown the numbers match pillar plate to bridge plates. The 6434432 was never a M5 like the converted ones or the ones pulled and called 277s since I was sent pictures of a later number 277 and it looks like my 7875650 lever set.


Grade 150 non-converted LS that probably is an M7



181 Bridge

Thanks Claude, this will help....boy you have really started something here and it is very important, to me anyway....

You made a comment above that "no one seems to comment much, so it's hard to get much feedback".... you are correct, and we can change that by 'strings' like this....that's why this is so important a topic, I think, and the only way to change is to start discussing things of this nature more and more....regarding Elgin watches....

I will be back later, after I do some things off line....

Thanks for getting this started....

Regards,

Jerry

I pulled the dial one more time but I think you can see the numbers match.

Never doubted you a second my friend....

Now, here is what I think happened, back in 1895....and I'll try to be as clear here as I can, because it is confusing....

Elgin started making the g=150 and g=277 at the same time in 1895. They made 2592, 150's starting with #6349001, ending with 6458001 and at the same time three (3) 277's were made, 6362334, 6457740 & 6457876, keeping in mind the 150 are pendant & 277 or lever mdl.'s and both are mdl. 7 movements....

Your 6434432 was made in 1895 during the same time as the above....

This is what happened, in my opinion....A g=277 pillar plate was inadvertantly misstamped with a g=150 blocked serial number and in actuality, there were (4) g=277 made but one, yours, received a g=150 s/n....

The way I see it Claude, you have 1 of 185 grade 277's ever made....and even better it is one of the first four made....

As far as the other two that you have they are pretty straight forward, one is a 150 converted to a lever set and the other is a grade 181, mdl. 7 movements all....

Now that is how I see it and if any others wish to comment, please do....I am just surmising here, but it makes sense to me....

Regards,

Jerry

So based on that my first lever set is the 2nd 277 made. I have seen the last run 277's and they look like my 150 out of the 7875xxx block. The finishing under the dial is much nicer than my 181.

Hi Claude, just to reiterate what I think may have happened....

Your s/n 6434432 could be the 2nd or 3rd g=277 made for the reasons stated above....

Your s/n 7875560 is a g=150 made in 1898 and later converted to a lever set effectively making it a g=277 in operation only, still officially it is a g=150....

Your s/n 8326105 is a g=181 made in 1899 during the 5th run....

As far as the finishing of the pillar plate, the difference in appearance could be for many reasons, remember they all are mdl. 7 movements but that dosen't mean the material for the model was not all made at the same time....looking at the three examples only confirms this, they are all similar but each has something different from each other....

You have some very nice Elgin's and one (in my opinion, #6434432) very rare piece....

Regards,

Jerry

Jerry I have seen pictures of the later 277's as documented by the Elgin master records and it does look just like my 7875xxx, like it started its life as a grade 150 and Elgin converted it to a 277 by doing some additional machining and adding the lever mechanism. I am not sure what the first ones listed on Wayne's site that were not documented in the master list looks like but I tend to think based on the master records that any grade 277 started out as a grade 150's. If I look at the grade 150 notes in regards to the 277, some of the 150's were pulled from the "Timing dept" and some from the "Packing dept" or at least that seems to be what the word is. If that is the case then these grade 150's were close to completion, at one part they are timing them or shipping them, if packing means shipping. So based on that I am very certain that all grade 277's will look like there were grade 150 pendant sets, and would show the unused pendant set mounting points along with the relief slot near the 12:01-12:02 area. So if we look at what a grade 277 is, it was a grade 150 in serial number and started it life as a grade 150 and sometime near the end of the production process Elgin pulled some of these 150's and converted them to lever sets. So any 277 should show some features of being a grade 150 but would now be lever set, so I think my 7875650 lever set fits that description, I don't know if that watch was pulled during production and not documented, it certainly falls into the 7875xxx serial number range that the majority of the 277's came from or if a customer sent it back to Elgin and Elgin converted it, but either way Elgin took a watch was originally a grade 150 and converted it to a lever set but it still shows leftover signs it was a grade 150 at one time. I tend to think that all of the grade 150 lever sets listed in whoevers database are undocumented 277's, clearly at least 4 are shown in Wayne's serial number range for 277's are not on the master records so at least someone has made a judgement call on that already. Elgin may have decided they needed 10-20 more 277's and grabbed some 150's and went on their way. In the master records the first G150 serial number listed is 7875xxx and another group starts at 8490xxx. I would say any lever set watches that now fall in the grade 150 serial number range but not in listed in the master records for the grade 277 are just undocumented grade 277s. Now the next topic is what about the other lever sets that are showing up that are lower than 7875xxx could be grade 150's that a customer sent back to Elgin to be converted but it would show signs of being a grade 150 but is now a lever set so by default I would think it should be listed as a grade 277. Now the topic of my other lever set that has a 150 serial numbers, and engraving but does not show any evidence that from the point that Elgin started doing any machining on it that its purpose was to be a grade 150. I put pictures of my 181 to show how nearly identical the two are in regards to the lever set mechanism and machining, my other to show how different, the other 7875xxx one is from the other two, since no one has posted a picture of a pendant set 150 I will pull the dial on mine and do so. I always thought an Elgin model 5 was a full plate pendant set, and a model 7 was a full plate lever set so my first lever set with the 6M serial number is a true model 7, unlike the 277's that clearly were model 5's converted to a model 7, not only from what we can see on the pillar plates but also what we see from Elgin's master records.
That brings us back to my 6M lever set by definition it can't be a 277, it surely was never a pendant set model 5 that was converted to a model 7. At best it is a prototype for the grade 181 or the first known model 7 or the first 181, the model 180 was only a 17j and mine is clearly 21j so the first 21j model 7 that was not converted from a model 5 would be the 181, since the 277 is not a true but converted model 7. If the early serial numbers listed on Wayne's site as undocumented 277's but I would say if these 3 have plates that look like mine then they are prototypes also or the first known 181's. If these 3 have plates that show signs of being a model 5 at one time then these might be conversions done for customers by Elgin.

The deeper we go the more confusing it becomes....sorta reminds me of what baseball pitching GREAT, Satchel Paige once said:"Don't look back, something might be gaining on you"....

I don't have any drawings that show the machining of the various models so I can't comment on that....I am just going by the numbers and dates that Wayne's database shows....I have no idea how many 150's were converted to lever set....to me that doesn't make a 150 into anything except a converted lever set mdl. 5 movement....

The 150's , mdl.5, and 277's, mdl. 7, were started at the same time, 1895....and in the same serial number blocks....

The 181's, mdl. 7, were started in 1897, a full two years later....and the 150's did overlap the 181 serial numbers starting around 1897 and I guess anything could have happened

What I don't understand is the difference between the 277 and 181, both open face, 21j, lever set, adjusted movements....6000 pcs. of the 181 and 184 pcs. of the 277....the largest run of the 277 was 80 pcs. in 1899, the last run but at one point in 1898 they made 10 runs of 1 or 2 pcs. only...? go figure....

Claude, I really cannot explain or answer your questions fully, and I do agree that your #6434432 and #8326105 are very similar in the machining process while the former is a 150 and later is a 181....

If the #6434*** is actually a 181, just stamped with the wrong number two years later, could happen I guess but isn't very likely, I don't think....

What a quandry....

Regards,

Jerry

Jerry as you can see this is a grade 277 as you can see from the serial number and the Elgin master records. If you look closely you can see how it looks nearly identical to my 7875650 watch. It does not look anything like my 6M lever set nor anything like the 181 that I posted.

Here is a true Elgin grade 150 pendant set. As you start to compare the machining for the setting mechanism you can see that Elgin had to decide ahead of time how the pillar plates would be machined, based on that the watch would one setting or the other, in the case of the 277 the machining shows it was at one time a pendant set and now it is a lever set. Jerry hopefully that helps since trying to look only at the serials numbers will only cause confusion. I would think that the engineering group could and would use pillar plates that had already been stamped and if needed use them for prototype or engineering testing, that is clear by the 150/277 master records.