hi, being a newbie. I am always looking at watches. I dont know if its my imagination, but it seems that most HC watches i come across are low jeweled below 17. I come across 17 and 21j and even once in a while a 23j watch, but not as much as movements below 17j. Many have beautiful cases, but only 15, 7 and so on jewels. Is it because the looks of the case was more important to many original buyers, for people would notice your nice case, but know one would ever know or maybe care how many jewels the watch contains ? Or maybe there waant a great need for high jeweled HC for they were accurate enough for most peoples daily use. HC not being allowed for RR service. If i had the money for a nice case, i would want the nicest movement i could afford, maybe others looking at my beautiful case might not know the jewel count or grade, but i would know and that counts the most to me.
maybe i am just blowing smoke here and i think i am babbling also, well thanks for reading, art the newbie

Hi Arthur!

Common opinion has been that the owner of hunter cases 'back in the day' were going for the 'bling' rather than what was inside. A standard 7j still gave them the time, but it was the flash of the gold when the watch was pulled that caught the ladies eye or make a fellow employee envious.

They'd spend the cash on the case and let what ever inside just be what ever they could afford after that initial purchase of the case was done.

That said, though, back in the day a 15j watch was/is considered a fully jeweled movement, 17j being optimum, so they WERE still buying the best movement of the day.

As Webb C. Ball advertised back at the turn of the 20th century, anything beyond 17j's on a watch were 'smoke stack jewels', and anything beyond that number essentially useless in terms of actual watch function.

Regards! Mark

Mark that is what i thought. I have a elgin grade 82 size 18 15 j dated 1881. Mark, it looks like it came from the factory today.
the market value even in its pristine condition is from $75 to $150. It had a very high production number. Ive been on other forums that members told me it was a low grade watch being 15j and un adjusted. I didnt really understand for most watches from 1880s
had far less jewels, being a newbie i figured they must be right and i must be wrong. I have 17,21, 23 and even a 24j watch worth 10x more then my elgin 15j HC but, i just love that low grade watch for some reason lolo thanks always art

I occasionally carry an 1882 11j Elgin grade 88 that I enjoy to the max, so we're in the same boat. After it was restored, it keeps fantastic time too!

In the 1880's and earlier, an adjusted 15j was considered railroad grade/approved on most railroads, depending on model and road.

I only carry my hunter's as vest watches. Less wear and tear on the case and hinges vs. carrying them in a trouser/jean watch pocket.

Regards! Mark

Another reason why hunters might more often have movements with fewer than 17 jewels is that hunters fell out of vogue around the end of the 19th century, which was around when US watchmakers started competing on jewel count.

Great and timely topic Arthur. I picked up an open face,pendant set, Elgin 18s 7j model 5, grade 172 last weekend because the watch and case are both in extra fine condition. My original thought was to buy it for the case, because as we all know that there is little or no collectors interest in a 7j Elgin. After looking the watch over for a few days I am not entirely sure that I want to break up this combination. Input Gentlemen Please!

Best left "as-is", Charles. This is the Ball, "Smokestack Jewels" advertisement Mark referenced...

I enjoy the ad very much Dave, i heard from other collectors 17j is all that is needed maybe 19j. What i remember growing up most wrist watches low to high price were only 17j. I on a nice Tissot, Longines, Bulova and so on were just 17j. And these were high quality wrist watches i own, each were automatics, i think i read somewhere that many automatics contained 19j two extra because of the automatic mechanism. I not sure though, once again, thank you to all. Art

Depending on complications, automatics can go from 25 to 31 jewels in short order, and even higher.

Thanks for posting that ad, Dave!

Regards! Mark

I tend to agree with David's thinking on this. As near as I can tell this case has never held another movement or been cut for a lever. I really don't want to do anything too invasive or potentially destructive that cannot be readily undone. The pocket watch database shows only 33000 total produced.

Like you Charles,I bought a Waltham"Traveler"1890"s for the Hunting case,of
course to use on another movt.but didn't have the heart to dissolve this old marriage.

Roger

Some things just don't become apparent until one sees a lot of American watches through the decades since the inception of the industry in America. Case content and styles are fairly reliable unless perhaps they cover a watch that may have been sold well after issue. Solid gold cases have never been common. Gold-filled cases were virtually nonexistent before 1875, and uncommon before 1880. And if you see an 1880s movement in a thin-neck, gold-filled case, be very careful; that might be your funny Frankenwatch. Coin and sterling silver hunting cases are pretty much a pre-1880s phenomenon by fashion, and an attempt to keep dust out. Dust was still an issue in the mid-to-late 19th century. Silveroid and Silverine cases and the like were often substituted.
RR-grade watches begin in the 1850s! The jewel count was 15j tops for roughly the next ten years. Unless you splash for an American-grade Waltham model 1868 or 1872, or a rare E. Howard, or few other makes, don't expect to see a 19 or 21 jewel American RR watch before 1875 or '80. The will to improve timekeeping (RR industry), and watch technology developed over time as all new technology does.
Think of the progression in modern computers.

Charlie,

I've done the same thing in buying 3 different 7J movements in especially nice cases with every intent of recasing early RR's... only to find the movements were in every bit as pristine condition as the cases.

They were in great condition across the board, as best I can tell 100% original, or at a minimum, period correct. I ended up leaving all three intact and finding the cases I needed farther down the road.