Hello Group,
I just wanted to share with you my latest "treasure". I just purchased a few hours ago what seems to be a very rare Hamilton 19j 936 & I am still smiling. This is straight from a house & always in the same family. Truly, as found & untouched, it's just the way I found it. I always run an ad on Craigslist looking for watches, were I find many of my watches. Yesterday I received an email about "my Grandfather's old Hamilton railroad watch". No photo was attached so I emailed her to call me, as this was much easier than emails. She called & described the watch & I dropped what I was doing and made the 25 minute drive. WOW, was I surprised when she put the watch on the table. I really was speechless! I just kept looking at it expecting it to be something else, because I was sure I was just imagining this beautiful watch. But, it was real & sitting in front of me. Then she told me it was her grandfather's watch & they just found it. She had heard about the watch from her father but had never seen it before.
Now, let me tell you where she found it. Her father had died in August & they were selling his truck. When they were cleaning the truck out, they came across a bucket full of tools & you guessed it, it was in the bucket! This watch was inside a bucket of tools riding around in an old truck. She had no idea why it was in the truck, but she said this was not unusual for him. I know this is a long story but I just wanted to share it with you. The Treasure Hunter strikes again . Oh yea, the condition is unbelievable. Fantastic J. Boss 14k 25 yr. case. Engraving & engine turning is sharp & crisp. The dial is hairline free & the movement is near mint. Still in it's original jeweler's box. It is investment grade plus being a four star watch. If there is a nicer example anywhere, I would love to see it. Not bragging, but it is that nice. I would love to hear your comments!

Way to go James....WHAT A FANTASTIC FIND....

Not much to say because the photos say it all....

WOW...!

Thanks for showing it here....

Regards,

Jerry

I'm wretched with envy, Jim.

Fantastic find! Please make sure it goes to a good home, somebody who appreciates the history as well as the box.

Way to go James!

Good going Jim! Nice find.

How rare are these 19j 936's? Is there a data base of known watches?

Wow frist one i have seen that,s a beauty rare and top condition what more could you ask for..10 or less i would say ever made just a guess..

There was 1 936 serial # 30500 made in 25 jewel this was one of the ones renumbered by the factory and made for a private label jeweler.

Gives us all hope Jim. I tried running an ad for watches on the Vancouver CL, but my ad kept getting flagged for some reason. Probably someone with the same idea looking for lost treasures like the one you found here. Great find!

John III

Hey James !!

I DO have some info on these unmarked grade, factory upjewelled watches that started life as a 936 grade "17 Jewel" and were upjewelled at the factory and are known today as the Hamilton 936 grade "19 Jewel" version

These watches will be from 280,001 to 280,910 and the first 10 watches from each 100 run were left in the "gray" and upjewelled to 19 jewels and so marked, but without grade number markings. These 100 watches were all sold to JW Forsinger of Chicago. The upjewelled versions all had black inletted lettering with the same damaskeened pattern. They were all single roller watches.

See: "Hamilton 936 with 19 jewels"

Here are the numbers of these upjewelled factory converted 936 watches with 19 Jewels;

280,001-280,010
280,101-280,110
280,201-280,210
280,301-280,310
280,401-280,410
280,501-280,510
280,601-280,610
280,701-280,710
280,801-280,810
280,901-280,910

And there's your serial numbers of the total 100 production of the factory upjewelled 19 Jewel 936's [ these are rightfully called today 19 Jewel 936's and not to be confused with the factory offered 19 Jewel 944's ]

How many are there left today ..... The guess would be 10-20-30 pieces

Hope that will be of some help to you

regards,
bb

Congatulations on finding that beautiful timnepiece James.

Bud

I just had to look this one up!What I found in the Hamilton Ledger is that 280701 was finished on 2-15-04 and sold to Forsinger of NY OFFICE ON 9-24-06.It ISN'T MARKED AS TO GRADE but 280701 is marked 944 and 280711 as a 936.

Sorry,I mean your watch 280707 was finished 2-15-04 and not sold until 9-24-06.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it appears that the first 10 watches in the run are the ones converted to 19 jewels but are listed as 944's.The remainder are 936.It appears the opposite as posted above.So your watch is a 944?

Hello Burt,
No, it is a 936. Started out as one & was upgraded at the factory as a 19j 936. 936's all have black lettering, not gold as the 944's do. Also, the demaskeen on a 936 is completely different than that of a 944. This watch is the same as all other 936 movements other than the 19 jewels instead of 17. I have spoken to Lindell today about this watch. He states this is no doubt a 19j 936. We also talked about the ledger. He notes that the "Grade column" where 944 is written, had been erased and 944 was written in a different hand. Why? we will never know. But look at the 944 movements & compare them to this & you can see the many differences. Maybe Lindell can chime in and explain things better than I can. But, I feel confident this is one rare watch. My thought is there might be only 10 to 20 of these left. Thanks for your input. Best, Jim

Jim has a very nice example of an unusual watch.

Hamilton apparently "up-jeweled" about a hundred left-over 1903 and 1904 Grade 936 movements in 1906 and sold them to the Forsingers, we got into this subject last year in "Hamilton 936 with 19 jewels" and in that topic Tony Dukes shared an image of number 280708 which interestingly is just one number above Jim's watch.

In my opinion I believe it reasonable to say that up-jeweling from 17 to 19-Jewels does not change the grade or the quality of a movement. These movements were manufactured as a Grade 936 and that is what they always were and that is what they always will be. I have other makes of watches where this also took place, this is something the watch companies did on occasion to sell-off old inventory. And as Jim pointed out, someone "erased" some of the listed sales sheets to change the grade number but that does not change what these movements really are. Check the "Complete Guide to Watches" page 226 of the 2010 Edition where these up-jeweled Grade 936 movements are properly described as "936, 19J" and carry "four-stars" which means "Scarce 100 or less produced" designation. (Total production of all Grade 936 was 18,336 movements.)

And then check the "Hamilton Movement Number Listings Preserved by John F. Gelson" on our numbered page 6 for this information...

MOVEMENTS 280001-281000 / GRADE 936 / 1903-1904 PRODUCTION

And as Buster described in his posting all the up-jeweled 936 movements fit into those numbers.

Believe what you can clearly see, the more you examine a 936 and 944 side-by-side the more you will agree with Jim and I, there are many differences between them, a 936 is a 936 and a 944 is a 944 and you will find the 944 was a premium finish movement with gold filled-in markings unlike the plainer black found on every 936 movement. Compare the genuine 944 shown below with any 936 regardless of whether the 936 you look at is 17 or 19-Jewel, I think you will agree the differences are obvious.


Compare this 944 damaskeening with a 936 movement...

Beautiful watch, Thanks for sharing.

Very nice!I have a similar story, but didn't turn out this good.For years I was promised a Howard railroad watch from a relative.I kept hoping it would be a series 10 or 11, or better still, a true old Howard. Well, I finally got it, the "railroad watch" turned out to be a well-worn, beat up 12S Keystone Howard.When something sounds too good to be true, it usually is!

Thank you for the great information! Our club is a good place for that.I shoud have looked at my own 944.What confused me was Hamilton listing it with the grade number.Anyway I add my admiration for a rare and fantastic looking watch!

936 or 944, finally dug out my 944's looking for something else, and my observation is different than Lindell and James, i have seen 944's with black lettering besides the ones in the 280,000 range, the one i have in the 280,000 range is exactly like James', but another i have # 426,785 is also exactly just like James', except in gold lettering, so i know there were different damascenes, the other 2 i have are like Lindell's damascene but not fully marked, just "adjusted 5 positions" and 944 on the right of the barrel bridge, so in asking if i believe that it's a 936 or 944, i would have to say 944.

charlie