1) Why did this 13 size Illini come in a 15kt
case?

2) Other than being in a 15kt case what makes this Illini Pocket Watch unusual?

Both this picture and the one of the case were made with an F2.8 135mm Macro lens. These lens maintain extreme sharpness even at 1:1 reproduction ( such as the 15k picture). If you are going to be photographing a lot of watches it may make sense to ge a Macro Len.

Bob

Here is the 15K mark on the case.

Well this is just a wild guess, is it that it has only two screws on the ratchet wheel?

Tom

Tom
A hint--it has nothing to do with anything mechanical.

Bob

Well then I give up, 13 size rare & 15K but since you said those are not it I will have to wait & see.

Tom

Robert,

This "adjusted" Illini is a fine grade of pocket watch movement. It was adjusted to 5 positions in the factory over a period of a few months or more. It's a special and fine movement that wasn't cheap. Not unusual to find one of these in a gold case. Can we see the dial? Happy Holidays!

William

Bob, though I collect Illinis, I don't see anything usual about yours apart from the 15k case. I have 5 Illini 3 in 14k and 2 in 18k. One of my Illini is number 3,649,443, 29 numbers later than yours. The movements seem identical. Here is the dial side.

And the back

And inside the rear cover

Finally,the movement

My guess is that it was made for sale to the British market or perhaps it was cased overseas. The Brits are known for seemingly odd Karats such as 9K.

Just my guess.

hi All! By the looks of it only has teeth half way around it. Ted

It is the "5 tooth pinion & click" with a Jeweled Barrel, and also oddly sized movement cut slightly over 12 size. Sorta "Swissy" lookin.

I will answer the whats unusal part first.

Hallmark (Macys Private label) is the only Private Label Illini that I am aware of. Hallmark Illini seem to be scarce--I have only seen 3 of them.

however the question hasn't been answered why the 15k case.
Bob

Here how the case is marked

used karat higher than 14 as a way for lesser known case makers to assure the buyer of a quality case?

By the way here is my Illinois/Illini/Hallmark but with an Illinois dial in a Hallmark case.

here is the case mark

and the movement

Believe the five tooth click was an invention of DeLong.

Also, I've heard two versions regarding the "hallmark" name. One is the Macy's version. The other is that Hallmark was the name used by a jewelry wholesaler, believe it was United Jewelry or something like that. I've never seen good documentation for either so I don't know for sure.

Michael
You answered the second part correctly.

I have seen ads for my watch that indicate that the buyer can be assured that they are getting what they pay for in the case.

Mike,I would bet that your watch had a Hallmark dial.I don't think the factory would have put an Illinois dial on a case made for Hallmark.

Bob

Here is a better view of the click

With as few of these, both Illini and Hallmark, I think it is very doubtful it was redialed. Like I mentioned, I have heard two stories on Hallmark. One is the Macy's story and the other is as a jeweler. If the jeweler is correct, they could have easily both made cases for Illinois and sold their private label for distribution by Macy's. All supposition and probably not enough examples of any of them to know for sure.

Apparently, the Macy's "brand" was not Hallmark at all. Another thread over there suggested that Hallmark might have been a case maker for early thin watches which might also explain the Illinois dial with a Hallmark case on my watch.

I have a second Hallmark watch which has an Illinois made movement but that movement is actually marked Hallmark. That would seem to be a more likely situation for a "private" label watch where the case, dial and movement are all marked with the private label.

Why is the top of the plate carved off?

Or is it?

Sheila,

If I understood Lindell's explanation on that a week or so ago, that 5 tooth click moves around that track in the gear underneath it. It would be nice to see a video clip of that. That would really explain it.

Steve

Lindell
The list has an error.

Grade 410 is 23 jewels not 21 jewels.Also the Hallmark Illini is not included.

Agree, the list shows a 510 (not 410) as 21 jewels and it is in fact a 23 jewel movement. Here is a picture of mine including the Hallmark name on the movement.

Here is a nice Illinois 510 from my collection.

It might be worthwhile to find out who actually owned the "Hallmark" trade mark pertaining to watches and jewelry in the 1920s time frame. That trade mark may have been owned by United Jewelers but the products marketed by R. H. Macy and Company or Macy's may have owned or were at least connected with United Jewelers . Of course the trade mark could have been owned by either company or another company altogether and used under license. Trade mark information should be readily available.

Another source of information could be checking 1920s Macy's advertising to see what they were selling.

All we really know at this point is that William Meggers published conflicting and therefore confusing information with no explanation as to what it meant. I'm not certain we have the answer, just because one was published later is not necessarily definitive.

Once into the trade mark information, also check "Hallmark" as a trade mark for watch cases.

We should keep an open mind and not jump to any conclusions.

Just a few thoughts, see if any of them help.

Don

It would appear that Mr. Meggars published corrected information as opposed to conflicting information regarding these Hallmark watches. There is no additional mention of Macy's in the updated information from what I've heard.

Of course you are correct that it would be interesting to know if Macy's might have been a retailer (probably were as they retailed pretty much everything else) or part owner/owner of United Jewelers (highly speculative and maybe could be proved/disproved from trademark research but a big "if").

Until other information turns up I think the United Jewelry source is the much stronger position.