I just purchased this 12 size Lord Elgin with a custom case,unusual dial ,superb enameling and a great inscription.

The Grade 392 17j 12 size Lord Elgin is a high grade ( see gold dome) very scarce watch with only 1,000 serial numbers known.I have seen two others in tact with plain 14kt Wadsworth solid gold cases.
In total no more than 10 17j Lord Elgins are known. Be aware this grade was created during a period of experimentation at Elgin and some parts from this grade and one other grade are not interchangable with other more common 12 size Elgins.

This is the first black Elgin dial that I have seen that I feel is original to the watch.

The unusual case construction of this custom case helps keep the weight of this heavy solid gold case down.

The enamelling is of very high quality for an American watch and has 5 different colors.

I love the inscription but leave it up to others whether they think it adds to the value of the watch.
Hope others enjoy this one
Bob

The movement

another view of the dial

the back of the watch

case

Congratulations. I was going to bid on it, but it got a bit pricey. In preparation for bidding, I did some research on the inscription. Berry Brothers is still around, I believe, but I could not find much about the Rice Foundation.

Google helped me find the following account from the New York Times from June 27th, 1915 -

"The Rice Leaders of the World Association, composed of about forty manufacturing concerns, each representing one branch of industry, had a dinner last night at the Hotel Waldorf. The diners were the heads of the companies and the salesmen who had won prizes for efficiency during a years competition. The prizes were awarded yesterday. In the afternoon forty-two Willys Overland automobiles were presented to the winners of first places, and in the evening 180 Elgin gold watches of special design were given to the other prize winners. Elwood E Rice, President of the organization, was the presiding officer at the dinner, and the chief speaker was Job E. Hedges. "

Bob,

That's a beauty of a watch, and I personally like the presentation engravings. Adds interest to the watch, and gives it personality. I really don't understand people's aversion to engravings (as long as they're nicely done). After all, it's not as if no one ever owned these pieces before us.

In their later years, Rice used Gruen Pentagon's as their presentation pieces, and Elwood Rice was one of the first owners of the Fiftieth Anniversary Gruen pocketwatch. I believe it was presented to him by Fred Gruen, who was prominent in the Rice Leaders of the World Association.

If you're interested, I have some background information (pertaining to Gruen) on the Rice Association.

Again, that's a beauty. Is the case signed as to maker?

Regards,

Cary

I have only seen one other example of these special presentation pieces, which passed through eBay about 4 years ago. It also had the 17-jewel Lord Elgin movement with a serial number 158 below Bob's.

A little more on the Gruen connection can be found on THIS GRUEN WEB PAGE, in the reference to "A Tribute to Business Character" by Elwood Rice.

Hi Bob, I saw that one too and agree it is a very nice piece, also have seen many more 21 and 23 j, than the 17j version or the 19j. As to whether the inscription adds value that is easy for me, imagine the back was plain polish with no engraving or enamel, versus your watch. Yours would win hands down, so yes it does add value. Geno

Just thinking about the listed awards. We have a couple of the 180 custom watches that have survived. How many of the 42 cars do you think still exist? ... and I'll bet none of them had an inscription.

Cary
Any additional information you have would be greatly appreciated.

Bob

Bob,

What I have is the "Tribute to Business Character" book that Jerry mentioned, and some advertising that refers to the Rice organization. There is also a testimonial from Elwood Rice regarding his Pentagon watch.

I'll get some copies for you as soon as I can.

Regards,

Cary

What a cool watch thanks for sharing it. I like the presentations on a watch it closest we will get to "if these watches could only talk".

Robert,

I don't have as much information on Elgin as I do the other companies I collect. I was hoping you could give me some additional information on this 19 jewel 12 size Lord Elgin I picked up on Ebay today. Do you know its production as compaired to the 17, 21, and 23 jewel versions? Any help and discussion you can provide will be much appreciated.

John

A photo of the movement.

A photo of the cuvette.

A photo of the back of the case.

John
When I get home tonight I can provide more information.

While not scarce your 19j Lord Elgin is nicer than most I have seen--you got a great watch .Originally these were relatively expensive watches.

Most of the time the Moire pattern on the back of the case is worn.The solid gold case is not as heavy as the 21j Lord Elgin . the thinner case often leads to dings and dents.

Bob
PS I have some 23j 12 size Illinois I will add to my thread soon.

Now there's a watch I'd consider "giving my eye teeth for". A real beauty; I like the engraving on the case.


Frank

John
Your watch is the Classic Model which sold in 1923 for $150.( My grandfather was making 12 dollars a week as Inspector on the Penn Railroad)
It came in 14kt white gold ( which is more common) and green gold.
The dial is made of silver and has applied gold numerials.
The hands may be original but most I have seen on this watch are slightly different.

Bob

The more I look the more I think the hands are original.
Bob

I think the hands are original. They look to be the same as the hands on my Lord Elgin "Classic," which is in white gold and has a somewhat different dial.

Here's a 21-j version in a 14k white gold case. The dial is cream or ivory color.

The name on the cuvette is "Corsican" which I understand refers to the bow, which is in the shape of Napolean's hat. I tried a photo, but the cuvette is so brightly polished the camera focussed on the reflection of itself instead of the cuvette. Here's one that sold on Ebay a few weeks ago item number: 200153903984
The auction item has a textured dial and personalization on the cuvette where my dial is smooth and the cuvette is not engraved; however, there are initials on the back cover.

Your cuvette should be similar to the cuvette on my Corsican.

. . . but the dial on my Corsican is a bit different than yours.

Ethan
the dial is a carved enamel dial that seems to be be unique to Lord Elgin 21j watches.

bob

Ethan//
A beauty
Tony

Robert,
What a great watch! Love everything about it, particularly inscription. Real beauty. Thanks Jerry Treiman for the information you obtained concerning inscription on Robert's watch!