Yes, that is what Cooksey Shugart has made out of those who have one or more Illinois Balls in their collection. At first flip through the new book, looking at the Balls, my personal favorite. Nothing else has done as well as the 23 jewel Illinois Ball's.
In extra fine they went up $600.00, and in mint they went up $700.00. So if you have been lucky enough to hoard a few Illinois Balls (yes Lindell, with the correct hands)Cooksey has taken you from collector, to investor, congratulations!
Regard's, Jack

Jack Goldstein
NAWCC 0152932
IHC 185 #274
http://www.ball-rr-pocketwatches.com

A few years ago, I bought a mint 16s "Ball" dial for $50. I had no idea at the time what it fit, but when I got it home, I was surprised to find out it was for a Ball Illinois. At the time, a complete Ball Illinois would have been worth $1000 - $1200, and I figured I'd eventually get a good deal on one with a bad dial, thus enabling me to end up with a nice watch at an affordable price.

As eBay started coming into its own, I started trying to find a Ball Illinois, and the prices kept creeping up -- first to $1500, then to $2000, etc. Finally, I noticed one with a REALLY bad dial, and I thought sure that would be my chance. When it went for $2200, however, I was so disgusted that I e-mailed the buyer, and asked if they'd be interested in buying my dial. I sold it for $650, and have never regretted it.

A few weeks later, I bought a mint 18s Rockford Indicator dial on eBay for $400. Now I've had it for a number of years without finding a movement to use it on either, but at least I'm money ahead.

To me, Ball Illinois watches are hugely over-rated. That isn't to say they aren't good watches -- they are -- it's just that they're not as "rare" as most people seem to believe. Although I haven't seen any precise numbers, the best estimates I've heard seem to indicate that about 3,500 were produced, and for a watch that common, the prices they're bringing now are unbelievable.

By contrast, only 200 of the 18s Rockford Indicators were produced, and I've never heard of one of those bringing in excess of $7k (and in my opinion, that was more that it was worth). For a watch such as a Ball Illinois that's 15 or 20 times as common, to bring half that much and more, to me seems entirely out of line, but that's just the flow of "supply and demand" economics.

Even so, at today's prices, if Ball Illinois watches were a commodity, I'd be ordering my broker to "SELL!!!" Surely the insanity can't last forever!

PS -- If anyone knows the exact number of Ball Illinois watches produced, I'd be interested to see it.

================

Steve Maddox
Past President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas
IHC Charter Member 49

That's my point Steve, when you write the book, you inflate what you have, and deflate what you want, simple economics. That's why we need a real time pricing vehicle. That is why I said, "Cooksey made you an investor" In this day of computerization surely a situation like eBay can be monitored and what sells goes up and what doesn't goes down, just like hog bellies, corn, and gold. I for one would subscribe to that timely report. The book is outdated by the time it hits the streets. Of course a 200 production watch should be worth many times what a 3500 produced piece watch should bring, but one needs to be sold to get it on the board. Its the case of the old catch 22, darned if you do, and darned if you don't.
Jack

Jack Goldstein
NAWCC 0152932
IHC 185 #274
http://www.ball-rr-pocketwatches.com

I know, Jack, I was merely agreeing, and reinforcing your opinion........

==============

SM

Ball-Illinois

There's a certain mystique about these watches. The only Illinois-Produced watches ever made to the highly demanding Webb C. Ball RR Watch specifications is only part of it. These appeal to a RR Watch Collectors, they appeal to Illinois Collectors, and no serious Ball Watch Collector could be without one. Before you sell, consider how many collectors we're talking about, tens of thousands all wanting one of these great watches. The ever-increasing demand easily exceeds the supply many times over.

In recent weeks I've received three requests for nice Ball-Illinois examples, perhaps the latest up-tick in values will bring some to market. For me, would I sell mine for $4,500.00 anytime soon? The answer is no, the reason simply stated is, where do I find another to replace it?

Legendary Ball-Illinois 23-Jewel with those outrageous hands...

...Beautiful!!!Lindell I've 'pinched' the image...will print and post on the shop wall...likely as close as I'll come to acquiring one in the condition yours is in at least in this life...thanks!...Jim C

Whole lotta pinching going on!

Mine is just like the one in the picture, but I cannot take credit for that shot... The Ball-Illinois with the red background belongs to our own Phil Dellinger whose chest swells with pride every time we borrow his amazing image. As shown above I slightly blurred the red background and increased contrast so the watch would stand out even more. The original image along with one of the movement is archived along with 1,200 others in our Chapter 185 Photo Gallery right here...

"Click" to see Phil Dellinger's Ball-Illinois in the Chapter 185 Photo Gallery

There's no doubt that the Ball Illinois models are terrific watches, but to me, it's difficult to explain why their value so exceeds that of comparable models.

For example, would someone please post the production numbers for the Ball Illinois models, compared to the Ball Hamilton 998 Elinvars?

=================

SM

PS -- The following is an image of the Ball Illinois dial I used to have......

[This message was edited by Steve Maddox on January 29, 2004 at 17:14.]

from the RR Corner article on Ball watches,

August 2002

998Elinvar = 2700 movements

23j Illinois = 3500 movements

I may be in the minority on this one, but I don't see the justification for such a drastic (if any) rise in the value of the Illinois Ball's. From my experience, the selling price on these seemed to peak about 1-2 years ago. The rise in price seemed to bring quite a few of them out of the woodwork and from the sales I've seen, the market seems to have softened a bit this past year.

Thanks Terry, your numbers concur with my notes exactly.
Again, both are considerably rare, and desired, while you would think that the 998E would take the bigger jump in price of the two.
Steve's point that Shugart gives one star to the lesser made 998E (2700) and the two stars to the Illinois Ball (3500). As well as $1,000.00 difference in top price, just makes no since at all.
Yet again, for one more year the spotlight stays on Webb C.
His life sure did make a difference, you can not talk about time, the American railroad history, and railroad time service, without at least once having to remember Webb C. Ball. He was the man.
Jack

Jack Goldstein
NAWCC 0152932
IHC 185 #274
http://www.ball-rr-pocketwatches.com

Some times my fingers don't type what my mind was thinking
I was trying to say that Steve's point was not only well taken but correct. It was the auther who made no sence.
Jack

Jack Goldstein
NAWCC 0152932
IHC 185 #274
http://www.ball-rr-pocketwatches.com

(A) Ball 16s, 23 jewel, motor barrel, bridge model, Elinvar, total production 2700

or

(B) Ball 16s, 23 jewel, motor barrel, 3/4 plate, non-Elinvar, total production 3500

Again, I don't mean to detract from the Ball Illinois models, which were and are great watches, but what can justify a comparable, yet rarer bridge model movement with an Elinvar hairspring selling for considerably less? When's the last time a 998E brought $4500, or for that matter, even $3000?

I just don't get it...... What are people thinking?

====================

SM

Steve Maddox
Past President, NAWCC Chapter #62
North Little Rock, Arkansas
IHC Charter Member 49

Those railroad watches were well serviced.

Steve -

A 998-Elinvar (in absolutely superb condition and with one of the nicest engraved stirrup bow cases I have ever seen) did sell on eBay a few years ago for around $3700.

I agree that the 998-E logically does have much to set it as equal to or a notch above the Illinois-Ball, but I think Lindell's point that this is the sole Illinois RR product for Ball is worth bearing in mind. For Hamilton the 998-E marks a point in a 50+ year line of Ball RR Standard watches, for Illinois the 23 jewel model is the whole line.

But just because I can appreciate the appeal of these does not mean that I can personally justify this price.

Fred

I am a big fan of both, the Illinois Ball, and the 998E. I own the 4th 998E made, although its not in as nice a condition as I'd like it to be. Its on the opening page of our web site. Being the owner of both models I can honestly say, you can't beat the beauty and the functionality (how ya like that word) of the 998E's bridge movement compared to the 3/4 plate Illinois Ball. To me, I'd rather spend the extra buck, if all things are equal, on the 998E over the Illinois Ball. Why? because to me, everything about the 998E is one grade above the rest. I'd compare the 998E to Hamilton's 950, and the Illinois Ball to Hamilton's 992 in comparison. I think the 998E got a bad rap by not going up in value at all compared to the Illinois Ball. Again, if nothing else look at the numbers?? Heck, I wish I had a box of each!!!
Jack

Jack Goldstein
NAWCC 0152932
IHC 185 #274
http://www.ball-rr-pocketwatches.com

I treat my B-Illinois as a trophy. It's not the best watch I have...but it's the best looking with the case lid on. The problem with undervalued watches is finding someone with 4 thousand dollars to buy them! I'll bet, better than average B-Illinois will go for 5 thousand before they slip to 3 thousand. The 998e is still my favorite watch...maybe a bargin compared to the B-Illinois......Robert