12 size Illinois 23 Jewel Gems

Several months ago I spoke with Jerry Treiman about doing a series of Posts about the various 12 size 23 jewel Illinois grades. Hopefully Jerry still has some time to add additional commentary

I felt that these high grade watches might be of interest to those who collect Railroad watches. I think of these 12 size watches as miniaturized Railroad watches due to their quality and time keeping ability. Most of these watches are scarce to rare and originally were significantly more expensive than their Railroad counterpart.

GRADE 299 23J HUNTER

This grade is the rarest of all of the 12 size 23 jewel watches that Illinois produced
—110 blocked serial numbers.

To the best of my knowledge I own the only complete Grade 299 23j hunter,

I paid $500 for the watch which at the time was considered very expensive.
At a later time Jerry Treiman found a movement at the Pasadena Regional. If anyone has any serial numbers would they please post it?

The example I own is an Ariston ( # 2,208,304) in an 18kt Ariston case and Ariston dial. This was first Grade 299 23j hunter that Bill Meggars author of the Illinois Watch Co Encyclopedia had ever seen.

Two runs were produced
1,921,971 to 80--1906
2,208,301 to 400--1909

The movement lettering for non private labels is
LLINOIS WATCH CO., SPRINGFIELD - 23 RUBY JEWELS - ADJUSTED (5 positions)
My watch is marked –Ariston USA—23 Ruby Jewels adjusted 6 positions

HOW I GOT THE WATCH

One day Jerry Treiman called me and said that there was an ad in the Mart for a Grade 299 23j hunter. Due to other purchases he asked me if I would be interested.

The Seller told me “I know the watch is rare but I don’t know where to find an interested Buyer”.

After buying the watch I did have some buyers regret as the dial had a significant crack—I was able to find another in perfect condition. I am a little more savy today.

To this day I ask myself why is there so little interest in these watches and what would this watch be worth if it was a RR watch.

Bob

Not as rare -- what is -- but another excellent 23j 12 size Illinois, a Grade 410 open face.

And a grade 410 hunter

These are very similar to the 16 size cross-hatched,true bridge Model 9 Sangamo Specials.

Robert,
I have to agree with you the 299 grade is one that I find hard to gain information about, with 2950 movements recorded with 21 and 23 jewels and that’s over 34 runs it does not make it any easier.
Have you any more information of this grade outwith the 23 jewel hunters.

Jim Carroll

Jim
My next topic will be the OF 23j Grade 299.

I eventually plan to cover the following 12 size 23j grades,
Illini
405
410( all variants)
416
510(one variant)

I am not sure who copied whom but I think it is fair to say that the grade 410 can be thought of as a minature version of the 17 size Sangamo Special-- the use identical damaskeening was intentional.

Bob

Although it is out of sequence I thought I would address the issue of who came first.

The damaskeening of the grade 410 is closest to the early 16 size 23j Sangamo Specials Model 9.

Since the first of theses Model 9s were produced in 1913 and the first 410s came out in 1915 I think it is safe to assume that the 410 damaskeening was borrowed from the 23j Model 9 Sangamo Special

Bob

Bob,
In the grade 410 model 5 run of 1000... 4,209,001 - 4,210,000, I have a early serial number that is jeweled barrel, then from 4,209,300's they are motor barrel.
Have you any information on this, are they classed as two different runs.

Jim Carroll

Bob - the first grade 410 actually came out in 1913 with the first serial numbers only about 20,000 later than the Sangamo Special. They may have been initiated at the same time with the damasceening intentionally the same.

Jim - if I may jump in on your question to Bob, does your earlier numbered example actually have a jeweled barrel or is it just marked that way? The jeweled barrel model does not have a visible jewel (left-hand example) and appears in the 3rd & 4th models while the motor barrel does have a visible jewel (right-hand example) and is found in the 5th & 6th models, the 5th model with motor barrel is marked like yours. I think that perhaps the plates were already stamped this way when they switched production to the 5th/6th models and they just used these earlier marked plates. The "Jeweled Barrel" notation is primarily there for the watchmaker to alert him that the barrel requires special dis-assembly. In fact, on some models the notation is on the pillar plate, underneath the barrel, and only visible when the watch is taken apart.

Jerry,
It has the motor barrel with the jewel showing, and jeweled barrel on the plate.

Jim Carroll

Jerry
Thanks for the information.

The Illinois Encyclopedia in the description of the grade 410 lists the first production as 1915.
However if you check the serial numbers in the back of the book it shows a 1913 date--I guess I shouldn't believe everything I read.

I own one of the hybrids that Jerry pointed out.I guess to the factory guys a part is a part and why waste it.

There are some many things to learn about 12 size watches and I appreciate everyones input.

Jerry,I was wondering if you could comment on the Grade 299 23j hunter movement you found.

Thanks
Bob

.. wish I could. I saw the watch but was not the buyer.

I do, however, have a private-label open-face made for Phelps & Perry in New York.

John
I think Hampdens are not well appreciated.

You didn't mention if the Hampden case was fancy or not. If the case was plain I think people tend to turn their nose up at Hampdens even though Model 6 ( thin series) are really nice watches.

I don't know much about South Bend gold cases but know they tend to command a premium compared to many other 12 size.In general Tu Tone cases are really seen--thus I think you are correct about it being rare.

Bob

Jerry / Robert,
Have you found any other named or private labels in the 410's apart from Jason Weiler and Lifetime series.

Jim Carroll

Illinois Grade 299 23 Jewel Open Face
Only 230 serial numbers were reserved for the 23 jewel open face Illinois Grade 299.
The watches were produced in 6 production runs

2,011,421 to 430 (10)
2,011,456 to 460 ( 5)
2,011,466 to 470 ( 5)
2,152,491 to 500 (10)
2,208,101 to 200 (100)
2,208,401 to 500 (100)


The open face version was introduced ( in 1907) about one year later than the 23j Grade 299 Hunter (1906)

In 1907 this was the highest quality 12 size open face watch that Illinois was producing. I am biased but I feel it was the same or better quality than the best RR watches Illinois was making.

While quite scarce, examples of the 23j Open Face Grade had been reported. I currently have two examples and Jerry Treiman has one that he posted a picture of earlier in this thread. If anyone knows of any others would they please let me know?

While 230 serial numbers were reserved, I doubt if 230 were actually made. The known serial numbers are near the beginning of the production runs.

The three known serial numbers
2,201,101 Ariston 23 Ruby Jewels Adjusted 6 positions 14kt case
2,208,131 Phelps & Perry 23 Ruby Jewels Adjusted (5 positions)
2,208,402, “marked Tiffany” 23 Ruby Jewels Adjusted (5 positions) 18kt case

WHY I OWN TWO 23J OF GRADE 299

While doing a periodic search on Ebay I saw a 23j OF Grade 299 Ariston. Unfortunately the auction had already closed. It had gone cheap.

About two weeks later I saw on Ebay another 23j grade 299 in an 18kt case with a dial marked Tiffany and I purchased it for $650.

Then the same Ariston in a 14kt Ariston case was put back up on Ebay and I was able to get it for $550. Aristons are one of my true loves and I just had to have it.

I apologize for not showing pictures of my two watches but I can’t locate the file they are in.

Bob

Another Private Label ( Phelps & Perry) Illinois 23 Jewel grade 299 has come to my attention.

The serial number is 2,208,127 which is very close to Jerry Treimans 299 (#2,208,131).

It starts to make one wonder if the actual production is much lower than the 230 reserved serial numbers.

Bob

ILLINOIS GRADE 510

The Illinois Grade 510 23j (Ruby & Sapphires) adjusted to 5 or 6 ( Ariston) positions was Illinois highest grade 12 size in 1911.All of the 510s were cased at the factory. Prices went from $100 to $150 in gold cases.

The 510 is a 12/14 size watch. The back plate is 12 size and the front plate is 14 size. By making the watch larger in diameter it gives the appearance of being thinner. If you are ever offered a series 500 movement, be careful, as cases that will fit it are hard to find.

The 510 preceded the Grade 410 by almost two years. The first serial number reserved for the 510 is 2,386,741 while the first 410 is 2,558,551. Only 423 serial numbers were reserved for the 510 (11 runs from is 2,558,551 (1911) to 3,425,000 (1918).

In my experience the Private Label 510s are more likely to be seen—especially Macys Hallmark (100 serial numbers were reserved).

I own five Grade 410s with four of them being the Hallmark Private Label.

The Hallmarks are an interesting variant. Unlike most Illinois watches being produced at that time the jewels were held in by being burnished into the plate rather than sitting in gold cups.

Meggars and Ehrhardt attribute the first friction set jewels to the 12 size 23j Illini which was first produced in 1917. In reality the Illini also has burnished jewel settings. It appears that the Hallmarks were produced about one year later than the Illini.

Jerry Treiman was instrumental in the discovery of the Hallmark burnished jewels. While looking at my first 510 he commented on the burnished jewels. With more purchases it became evident that all of Hallmarks were probably made with burnished jewels. Whether this was done as an experiment or a cost cutting feature is not known.

below are examples of an ariston with regular jewels and a Hallmark with burnished jewels.

Note in the prior picture you can see the slightly larger (14 size)front plate.

Note the burnished jewels on the Hallmark

I picked up a 21 Jewel with Ariston Dial, but it must be a fake.

Beacuse the movement sure does not "fit" thos pictures in this thread!

David
Your watch is a fairly common 21j adj 3 position Illinois.

If you ever plan to sell the dial would you please let me know.
Thanks
Bob

I was just speaking to Jerry Treiman about getting a picture from him and he reminded me that a slightly earlier run of Hallmarks
3,077,351 to 400 also have burnished jewels.

What is interesting about the one I own 3,3077,358 is that the finish is higher in quality --more like the 12 size 23j Illini.

Bob

Here are some of the cards from my 510 Ariston .
I think the quality of these watches matched the best Illinois RR watches being made at that time.

The 510 Ariston shown is Jerry.You will note that
it is Ariston Rated to show its quality.
Bob

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item...=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=003 Geno

http://cgi.ebay.com/Illinois-23J-Grade-410-Mini-Sangamo...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Just saw this on Ebay, has to be scarce Geno

Gene
The watch is a private label grade 410 . All of the ones I have seen were in solid gold cases. Suspossedly the watches were guaranteed for the buyers Lifetime--hence the name.

Bob

Thanks Bob, I don't recall seeing this particular marking before. Geno

12 SIZE 23 JEWEL ILLINI

The 12 size 23 jewels Illini adjusted for temperature, 6 positions & isochronism is truly one of the great Illinois mysteries—no ads are known. Only 200 hundred serial numbers were reserved for this grade in 1916.
2933001 to 4000
2935001 to 5100

Until 10 years ago only one movement had been reported. Since then an additional 3 or 4 have appeared.

The movement was erroneously described as having friction set jewels in the plates for the center, 3rd and 4th wheels. In fact these jewels are burnished into the plates and not friction set. This seems to be the first attempt by the factory to burnish jewels.


How I got my movement
One of my earlier EBay purchases was the 23j Illini which came in a cheap case. At the time I paid $600 for what was essentially a movement—2,933,944. I believe that they were originally in 18kt cases.

If anyone owns one of these watches I hope that they would be willing to share the serial number.

Bob

ILLINOIS 23 JEWEL GRADE 405 ADJ 6 POSITIONS JEWELED BARREL

The Grade 405 is probably the rarest and least understood high grade 12 size Illinois.

While most 12 size grade 405s were of medium quality the 23j model looks identical to a 23j grade 410 with a jeweled barrel.

In the Illinois Watch Co. Encyclopedia only one example was known. The serial number was sandwiched in a production run of 2,000.The other half of the run consists of 17 jewel grade 405s.

I personally do not think very many were made as the only two known examples are very close to one another. The movement in the Illinois Book is 3,498,418 and the one I own is 3,498,453. Whether an order came in for some 410s and it was decided to use part of a block of 405 serial numbers will never be known.

HOW I GOT THE WATCH
Russ Snyder had purchased the watch on EBay to photograph it etc and then put it back on EBay. I was able to get it for about $450. The watch has a metal dial and is cased in a plain Wadsworth gold filled case with an inscription from 1922.

If anyone has any information I would love to get it.

Hope everyone has a Happy and Healthy NEW YEAR.

Bob

ILLINOIS GRADE 416 23 JEWELS ADJUSTED SIX POSITIONS

The grade 416 is identical in every way to a Grade 410 except the number of positions is spelled out i.e. SIX rather than being the listed by the numerical value 6.

Only one block of 100 serial numbers has been identified-- 3,188,801 to 3,188,900.

To date no one has been able to provide a reason why the factory made this variant and classified it as a separate grade.

I am fortunate enough to own two of the grade 416. Both of the watches are cased in fairly plain 14kt solid gold Solidarity cases with dust covers –one is green gold and the other is a regular gold color.

The metal dials are meant to look like a double sunk dials –one is white and the other is gold colored. Both have identical enameled numerals and Breguet hands.

The serial numbers I have are 3,188,849 and 887.

In the Illinois Encyclopedia is a picture of 871 and in Russ Synders database is a picture of 826.Thus it appears reasonable to conclude that between 70 and 100 Grade 416 were manufactured.

Each of my 416s was obtained on EBay and I paid between $500 and $600 for each one.

Does anyone have an opinion whether the 416 should command a premium over a regular 410?

Bob

Dial on 12 size Illinois Grade 416