Need help with this 23J Bunn Special

when I ran this serial number through the pocket watch database it shows as a bright spotted...#2593634....but this is definitely a rayed movement...could it possibly be a first run 23J ray?

I see that now the database has it in a "mixed" run of bright-spotted and rays but that doesn't tell me what I want to know. How many rays were in that run and was it the first run of 23J rays and how many produced in other runs, are things I'd like to know.

Oh yes, many times, but mine is a model 9 not a model 14 60 hr. as those described there...thanks!

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2593634

So, I ran it thru the database program I have. When I put in the serial, it prompted me for Fish scale or Rayed. Below are the results from both.

Hope it helps.
Tom

Thanks very much Tom but it will take someone more knowledgeable than I to figure it out but it seems that both rayed and fishscale were in that run of 400. And it seems that my serial # was in the first run of the rayed 23J model 9's...any other thoughts anyone?

Dennis; IMO This is not a first run. I think I have one with a lower #. Searching the blue book #s I see them as far back as 2,556,101 in a 23J Bunn Special Model 9 and that is just a quick search. There MAY be some yet lower. Whether or not all lower serial numbers were fishscale or bright spot will never be truly known w/o as many examples as we can find and their respective numbers for as you know not all watches follow the blue book records as they were only able to do so much back in 1985.

No way to determine which were fishscale and which were rayed w/o having an example in your hand to go by, as Lin did with others.

Blue Book says 2606301 as 1st Run of rayed pattern but as you can see your watch is lower than that.

I have always just viewed the rayed pattern as "23J Jeweled Barrel" in yellow or red. I always figured the RED ones came later but never researched that either.

The only way to prove what is what is to have knowledge and serial numbers of KNOWN examples. I have a couple down here but most are in Illinois. I'll try to dig a few out and report #s I have.

You have a nice 23J Jeweled barrel but no where near a first run IMO. These were ALL low production.

Maybe Steve M will ring in he may have more info on this.

Tom...I will defer to your knowledge but the database above shows all runs for 23J rays starting at 2,593,501 and mine is only 133 above that number and it was in the first year (1913) of 16S Bunn Special production

I see that Dennis but that database without KNOWN examples doesnt mean much at least to me. Let's get everybody to post pictures of THEIR jeweled barrels and start a KNOWN database HERE!

You may well HAVE a first run but I'd like to see 50-100 KNOWN examples so you could indeed say "mine could be a first run" and have that backup to prove it.

Remember what Steve said about those 1st and last Bunns you now own. You can apply this to the 23J Model 9s as well.

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Strange things happen in the tracking of this information as manufacturers documentation was not always the most accurate. Even getting to where I did stepped outside the boundaries of what was known and data that had been collected.

Yes, all that would be helpful...thanks!

For some reason, I've thought that the rayed finish came AFTER the fishscale stopped but it seems the rayed came out DURING the fishscale production and for a very short time they coexisted

The most up to date info I have seen Dennis on these currently have the 23 Jewel Ray Pattern Model 9 Bunn Special's at 12 runs produced.

Currently with a manufacture range somewhere probably in between the serial's 2,593,500 through to 2,875,900 and estimations are approximately somewhere in the vicinity of 2,150 manufactured from the examples seen between those numbers.

These numbers given above are only from research up to approximately 2014 or so. Therefore, others by now could have been discovered, which if this is the case would have expanded the numbers or maybe no others have been sighted and numbers have stayed the same, I do not know

Taking into account those numbers mentioned above, the one of yours is currently in the first known run with regard to the above research, but as always this is subject to change anytime due to new discoveries

Thanks Bila...much appreciated!