Every time you see pocket watches offered for sale or auction, many non-rr watches are misrepresented as "railroad" , even 7 jewels.I think the all time most often mistaken victim of this is the Waltham 16s 21J Riverside.EVERYONE that has one of these calls it a railroad, when in fact it is only temperature adjusted and doesn't even have a micro regulator!Anyone else have any other nominations?

To confirm Theodore's "revoltin" observation, I mst bear witness to my search of my last 7 years Waltham which show 5, 16s, 21J Riversides, and 1, 23J Riverside Maximus. Of these 4 of the 5 21J are "16A" models and are basically postwar buildups of parts, Temp Adj only. Then there is one 21J with Pressed Gold Mounted jewels also only Temp. Adjusted that dates to about 1940. The 23 Jewel Riverside Maximus of the same late 1930's vintage sports TWO PAIR Cut Diamond Endstones and is marked "Adjusted" . . . which could mean just about anything. Last 2 pictured below;

Thats interesting Tom and Dave. I only have one 21j Riverside and it is only adj temp, being a model 1621, but have 2 other Riversides 19j fully adj to RR standards. Does this mean there was no 21j Riverside with full adj., or was it just the later ones ?
Bill

During the production of the 1899 series of 16s Walthams, I found a number of 19J RR adjusted Riverside named movements that are for all intents and purposes identical to the same (early) 19 Jewel 1899 Model 645. These ARE RR Grade, and in fact very well fitted and finished.

All the Riversides I have are RR adj5p versions but you do see the one that Ted posted all the time and many times you see it priced for more than the true RR approved Riversides. I guess it might have been easy to sell a decent 21j 16s watch at a lower price by skipping the testing necessary for the adjustment of 5 positions, drop the patent regulator, I would not be surprised if most of the internal parts were shared with the RR approved brothers. Figure if you could save a few days of testing and labor costs and still sell them, why not.

Claude, are yours 19 or 21 jewel ??
Bill

One is a 19j pendant set, the other a lever set and I have the 645 19j

I have a true Riverside RR watch, a lever set 19J 5 position '08 model.It is amazing that the non railroad 21J usually gets sold for way more than the "real" one.I think since the 21J version usually has heavy hands and RR dial, many are fooled into thinking it's railroad grade.Like Dave said, the 19J ones really are a fine RR watch, they were on the railroad approved list, the 21 never was.Mine keeps quartz-watch time!Thanks, Ted.

Interesting thread! You guys got me thinking. I found these old 16s in the bottom drawer and the one on the left is RR grade. But it's not much to look at!

Dave I am not sure I would say that, it would be like going to a car show and seeing a nice model T and saying it isn't much to look at. These must be in the 1890 so and earlier range, can't say that I have seen either one that often.

Thanks Claude,
Think I'll try to restaff it and give it a resurrection!
I'll need to find a hunting case for it.
The dial is dirty and I didn't notice the hairline above the 4 until I took the picture.

Ted you are so right about the misuse of the railroad watch term! Of course any klunker that was shipped by rail MUST qualify as a railroad watch. My personal peeve is any watch that has a locomotive on the case and regardless of the movement is called a railroad watch. I have seen this from sellers who should have known better, based on their sales history. I do try to keep in mind that in todays world many people call a pocket watch a railroad watch with no intent to deceive. Words and terms change their meaning over time. Example: the recent thread about Railroader & Mainliner cases but as Buster would say those of us who know better should not call it a railroad watch unless it was.

I have been in this excite hobby for about 12 years and never paid any attention to the watches stated above NOT being Railroad grade.

I think the big clue is the lack of a micro regulator.

Well the $1,00 I spent this month on the club dues paid for itself 100 times over again.

Thank You everyone.

Thanks Deacon, I know what you mean...I've seen a to of 18s Elgin 7 jewel railroad watches on the big auction site, but as you said, people just really don't know enough about watches.The other one that gets me is all those modern Swiss watches with a loco on the back and dial, with a buy it now price more than the average 992!...Take care, Ted.

Dave, good luck trying to find a case for that'88 model Waltham,for some reason, there just aren't any around.They take a special oversize case with a detent stem setup.I have a beautiful 88 model 15J adjusted Riverside, like you I have no case.It's too bad someone wouldn't start up case manufacturing again!

Claude, You are right, I was just comparing mine to the example listed up above. For 1891, I reckon having a watch like that would have been very desirable.

And Theodore, I appreciate the assessment on cases. I'm not smart enough yet to know which case fits, and wouldn't recognize one if I saw it.

There is a lot of information available about watch movements, but case information is pretty scarce.