Hi Folks,

Posting photo's of another of my Mil watches for perusal and comment.
This one is the 'Groaner' I mentioned in another of my postings.
When I first picked up this watch, I thought it was just an anonymous scrap watch with military marks on the case back. When I got the back unscrewed and saw the damage and missing bits, then the makers name, I couldn't help but groan at the state of it.
I'm not sure if it has seen some action or has just been butchered for bits.

The dial plate has a sharp dent in it next to the setting lever. The dial,hands & motion work, plus bezel & crystal are all missing, as is the complete Balance & balance cock. The lever fork has taken a huge whack, as the lever is kinked around a banking pin and fork crushed - probably by the roller jewel.

I dare say with patience and some luck with parts from my 'bits bin' I could turn it into a runner, but probably not worth the effort. It'll most likely end up on Ebay as a 'project'!

If anyone can help, I'd be most interested to know which arm of the military this would have been issued to.

Best regards
John Woolsey

Dial plate:
The dent can be seen next to the setting mechanism.
I originally thought that the large black patch was old oxidised oil around jewel holes, but found there aren't any jewel holes at that point. Whatever it is, it's etched into the surface.

Apologies for the lack of definition around the case edge, had to 'airbrush' out the background colour to reduce the image size.

This was a real 'Upper and Downer'..........

Having got the case back unscrewed, couldn't help letting out a whoop of joy when I read the makers name, then groaned even louder when the import of the missing bits struck home!

Can't win 'em all I suppose!

Darn, that is a bumer. Otherwise, Rolex military pocket watches have sold rather well.

The markings on the back stand for General Service watch MK II. Issued by the Royal Army as a basic time peice. WWII vintage.

Best regards,

Greg

Thanks for the info on the markings Greg, my sentiments entirely as regards condition of the watch.
I wasn't entirely fazed by the missing movement bits as there's nothing there that's insurmountable, the missing screw bezel sealed its fate as far as any restoration goes. Whatever I do to it, it'll never be a Rolex again without genuine parts, and finding those'll be like turning up hens teeth!
Ho Hum .............

Best regards
John

I agree that its too bad about the watch, but on the other hand Rolex was not quite the big name back then as it is today. They were fine pocket watches, of course, but I get the sense that that better part of today's market for the old ones is a reflection of the quality and price of more recently made ones rather than the old ones being the bees knees. I'm not knocking the new ones - I have a two-tone Datejust that I break out for when I get all dressed up and want to show some bling, but I think even the new ones are overpriced for what you get. It might be a toss up as to whether you would get your money back out of your groaner after you fixed it up, but I would like to see every old military clock and watch brought back to life just on general principles. In my personal and not so humble opinion the Omegas were the finest Swiss made military watches of their day, with maybe the Doxas, Zeniths and Rolexes giving them a run for their money. I'm sure everyone would come up with different rankings, though.

I'm not too concerned about its monetary value being affected by attempts to recover it, it never cost me a deal anyway.
I'm more concerned about the effect on its desireability as a military artifact.
Would a collector sooner take the watch 'as is' or would a 'non gen' repair make it too much of a 'mongrel'for anyone?

I'm inclined to take a shot at repairs as an interesting project, and have saved some photo's of a similar watch for pattern, but would like to think I wouldn't be turning it into more junk than it is already.
Like you though, deep down I would like to see it brought back to life again, it did after all survive a war!
Best regards
John

Hi Folks,
I Just have to share this with you!
By the most fantastic stroke of sheer luck, I'm going to be able to save this watch!

I was browsing someone's feedback on Ebay yesterday, and took a look at some of the buyer's past purchases.
One of them was a GSTP watch, which the seller described as having a Leonidas movement, and that the manufacturer in the 1940's, " made the movements for military Rolex PW's" ... That made me sit up straight and take notice I can tell you ............ and you'll probably guess where I'm going with this ..........

Amongst my 'clutter', I have a box with maybe 200+ PW movements, some Swiss, but mostly early and late English Lever types. I felt sure I had a Leonidas swiss movement somewhere in there though.

I found some part movements which were candidates for suitable (maybe) balances and cocks, but couldn't find the Leonidas. I then fished out a "Cortibert" movement.
Checking this against the Rolex, all the bridges were similar, it had the same jewel count, and the jewels were Rubies in the same gold mounts.
I whipped out the balance, back cock and lever, and incredibly, they dropped right into the Rolex, even the screwholes and pins on the balance cock lined up perfectly, and even more incredibly, when I wound it up, it fired right up and ran!
I also thought the index lever had been bent at some point, as it has a very slight curve in it, but checking it against photo's of Rolex's on Ebay at the moment, it's a 'Perfect match' - a unique feature of those movements it seems, I'd never come across it on other types.

Even the Cortibert Black enamel dial, luminous hands and all the motionwork fits perfectly too. Yeeow!!! It's also identical to a Rolex on Ebay right now except for the text on the dial!

I can't describe the feeling of this achievement, anyone who's done much work on old Swiss movements, will know that you can have 100 movements and enamel dials on the bench, even from the same manufacturer, and end up with not one single matching pair with any parts in common. They're so frustrating to work on at times, it takes enormous self control not to throw them across the room.

Now, if I can restore the black enamel dial (missing enamel around the dial feet), or find another that's affordable to suit the Rolex, and, either find or make a bezel, I can get the thing restored to its former glory again. Small beer compared to the missing balance, back cock and motionwork!
Even the missing screw on bezel doesn't seem such an insurmountable task now!

Apologies for the length of the message folks, but if I were a dog, I'd be wagging six tails right now!

Just goes to show what can be achieved by a bit of 'lucking around'

Best regards
John.

............... still hunting for the Leonidas

Given the extreme quirkiness of Swiss makers in their making unique parts for everything, along with what I have found to be indecipherable interrelationships among Swiss makers, and given the exact match you discovered, I can't help but wonder who was making movements for whom in those days at least in terms of Cortibert, Leonidas and Rolex.

Amen to that.

Best regards
John

I've got a small pile of Cort signed Cortebert stuff that I save because the dials and mov'ts , well, are signed Cort . I've got wristwatches and boxes and a couple of ephemera bits. Most was given to me because of my name. I still have it all because it is bad form, generally, to sell gifts, at least without good cause.
That said, my general opinion of the Cortebert
ebauches is tepid. But if "Cort's watches"(even the ebauche) was acceptable to Rolex then I may have to ammend my paradigm!!
-Cort

Hi Cort,
I believe in those days, Rolex was buying in all it's materials including movements then refinishing them to its own spec', not sure when the company produced it's own calibres 'in house'.

The Cortibert movement I have, is signed with the company name but only on a winding wheel, whereas the Rolex is signed on a bridge.
Both have different calibre numbers.

It certainly astonished me that purely by accident,I'd found a Swiss manufacturer that not only produced interchangable parts for it's movements, but actually between watch houses too!
Certainly saved my bacon!

Best regards
John

Rather than revise your paradigm upwards for Cortebert, my suggestion might be to consider revising your paradigm for Rolex of that era downward. Don't get me wrong, they made good quality watches in those days, but in my personal opinion their reputation for top quality came from their more recent watches. Their their sky-high prices effective advertising resulting in brand recognition as being top of the line is even more recent in their corporate historical timeline.

Hi All,
Brief update on this project .........

I've now located all the parts I need to replace the missing stuff and rebuild the movement, and also found a busted watch with a screw on bezel (un-numbered)plus mineral glass which fits and matches perfectly.

All I'm short of now is a correct dial (I have a pair of luminous filled hands).
I decided tonight to pass on a white Rolex dial as to me, it didn't look quite right - and the name was almost unreadable anyway.
Would a Black dial be a more correct replacement, or did I blow it tonight passing up on the white one?
(I have a Cortebert black dial which is a perfect fit, so appears the dial pins are a standard spacing and interchangeable).

Opinions from the experts welcome!

Regards to all
John

Some brands of GSTP have either white or black dials, but I don't think I have seen any white dialed Rolex GS MKII watches.

Thanks Greg,
I thought pretty much the same, but not seen enough to be certain.
The two on Ebay at the moment have White and Black dials respectively, but only the GS MkII has a black dial, no idea what the other one was used for.
Certainly prefer the Black dial variant!

Best regards
John

If the links fail, copy and paste the item no's into the search box, it will find them.
JW.

Rolex Military PW White dial
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&it...=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=015

Rolex Military PW Black dial

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TRIPLE-SIGNED-ROLEX-MILITARY-POCK...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The one with a white dial and a "B" on the back of the case is a grade B instrument watch. These were attached to wireless sets in black-plastic holders. They may have been used for other things as well. I'm not so sure that it originaly had a bow on the stem.

From my observations to date, I think all G.S. MKII pocket watches had black dials, regardless of maker. Whereas the GS/TP watches, as "Trade Patern" watches, had a little more flexability in dial color.

Sad to say, your Rolex GS MKII should have a dial with the same serial number under the Rolex name as on the case back. Maybe you could get an unmarked black dial and mark it to match. As long as you inform a prosective purchaser that it's not original, it should be ok.

Best regards,
Greg

Hmmmm ....... think I'm about to make myself both a tad unpopular here and chuck a spanner in the works as regards the black dial theory!

I previously mentioned the broken watch purchased to part out and repair the Rolex (missing bezel)....... well ..... just checked the case ..... and it's a GS MKII ......with an unnamed White dial, an unnamed movement, and an unnamed unnumbered screw back and bezel case!
Serial number is: GS MKII A58466, but other than that - Zip! Zilch! Nowt! not even on the movement (Generic 17 jewel Swiss Lever)!

It was actually quite a nail biter waiting for that auction to finish, as the guy stated in the listing that he couldn't get the back off the case to photo the movement.
I though no, I just can't get THAT lucky, but had a go anyway - and won it - hoping against hope it would be a Rolex movement!

I had to superglue a steel bar onto the back to get it off in the end, but there were no surprises when it did eventually come off, I was just very pleased that the bezel fitted the Rolex.
The case backs and bezel are actually a perfect fit on both cases strangely enough.

If I can find another screw bezel that will do the job on the Rolex, I'll keep this one intact. It was as much a 'try it and see' purchase anyway....... and at £30GBP with another working Mil watch thrown in, it wasn't such a bad deal really, especially as the seller lived just a 5 min drive away from me!).

I'll clean up the watch and post pic's of it here for the archive value anyway.

Not sure what I'll do with the Rolex when it's finally rescued, I wouldn't be too happy flogging such a hybrid on Ebay or anywhere else for that matter, but it'll be good to see it done.

Best regards
John