Internet Horology Club 185
Evolution Of 4992B and 3992B Markings, Numbers and Database
September 28, 2013, 01:12Richard Spence
Evolution Of 4992B and 3992B Markings, Numbers and Database
September 28, 2013, 01:13Richard Spence
September 28, 2013, 01:13Richard Spence
January 14, 2014, 10:01Tony Siviter
MFRS Part NO.3992B
Broad Arrow serial NO.1103-1942
Hamilton Watch CO.
H.3. Lined Out
Movment No 3C1033
Hamilton Watch CO. U.S.A.Above Centre Second Hand.Bold Block.
3992B.(Numbers and B uniform Size)22 Jewels bold Italic.Stamped US Govt Italic
ADJ Temp and 6 Positions Italic
Broad Arrow.On Watch face
Case Keystone Base Metal.NO 570879
Dial.12 Hour Hamilton white Face Black Numbers and Broad Arrow
Outer Minute orbit Graduated in Single seconds and 5 second indications in Black.
Single Sweep Second Hand in Black.
Wood Case with Glass Window.With Form 213 Issued by Chronometer section .Hydrographic Department
Ministry of Defence.HERSTMONCEUX CASTLE. HAILSHAM. SUSSEX.ENGLAND.Plus form H538 Abstract of Rates
giving further information.(Hamilton.1103. Stores Ref NO H.S.527-363(lined out) 6BB 60.)
Gives Mean Daily Rates and Mean Temperature for November and December 1979 and 1-2nd May 1980.
Signed.H.E.West Officer in Charge. Date 7-5-80.
Also printed paper Stating(This Navigation Watch is fitted with a Balance stop Mechanism )
(set Hands and Depress winding Button.)
August 05, 2014, 23:27Henry Jepsen
I recently found a 4992B from the estate of a gentleman who was a lieutenant during WWII. He trained pilots in Texas and that's about all I know of him.
The case of this 4992B isn't like any other case I can find. It looks decorated and I do not want to attempt to open it for serial numbers. I hope someone can shed some light on this unusual 4992B.
August 05, 2014, 23:34Henry Jepsen
August 06, 2014, 23:58Bruce Byrd
Most pocket watches can be opened with your two hands. The case is screw type (front and back screw off). Most cases open up with this little trick.. Take the watch and place it in your hand (I use my right hand) face down. Place your other hand over the back of the watch (your hands will be flat). Move your top hand counter-clockwise. The friction will spin the case back off. You don't need to press in really hard.
A word of advice.. Don't stand up while doing this.. Sit on a couch or something soft. If it gets away from you, it will land on something soft..
August 07, 2014, 11:50Henry Jepsen
Thanks so much Bruce!
The serial number for the 4992b is 1942-1944
The decorated case is Illinois watchcase co and is the Spartan model.
So many questions are answered when you know how to open the case!
August 07, 2014, 11:51Henry Jepsen
The Spartan case by Illinois Watchcase Co
September 01, 2014, 00:38Herschel Fink
I found this thread while researching my own, very atypical, 4992B. I hope that one of the members here can solve the mystery of what I have, which was purchased at a show in about 1964 by my father-in-law, and passed along to me with his collection. (I have photos, but not sure how to post, so if anyone wants to see them, I can email them.)
First, the movement markings seem typical of many 4992B's that are listed here. The movement is signed Hamilton Watch Co. U.S.A., Adjusted temp. and 6 positions. The grade is marked, 4992B, 22 jewels, U.S. Govt. and the damaskeened movement has the serial number 4C31454, so it's about a 1941 manufacture. There are a couple of watches in this list that are within a couple of hundred numbers on either side of my serial number. Those watches have the typical, black 24 hour dial with sweep seconds, and a base metal or silver case. This one is very different. Mine has a yellow, "20 year," gold-filled, open face case, signed Empire State, with the serial number 2295360. The case back is plain.
It gets more interesting: The 12 hour dial is white porcelain, with black, railroad style arabic hour numbers. The minute track has red numbers at 5 minute intervals. It is signed Hamilton in script. The hands are typical, railroad style blue steel spade and pointer, but with the addition of a red, hacking sweep second hand. Now, add to that the double sunk dial ALSO has subsidiary seconds, which are synchronized 30 seconds apart from the red sweep seconds hand (in other words, when the red sweep second hand is at 60, the subsidiary second hand is at 30).
This entire watch is in almost mint condition, including movement, case and dial, which is bright and totally free of hairlines or chips. The movement is accurate to within a couple of seconds a day (at least in the face up position). I don't see any service markings in the case back.
So, the unusual attributes of this piece (which I can't find described in any reference book or on the internet) is a WHITE, 12 hour dial (I know some other 4992B's were geared for 12 hours) in a GOLD FILLED case, with BOTH hacking red sweep seconds AND subsidiary seconds.
I hope someone can shed light on this absolutely stunning and unusual piece. Thanks for your help.
September 01, 2014, 09:40Buster Beck
Unfortunately, both Herschel's & Henry's watch's have been re-cased.
I hope both of you decide to join our club for $12 a year which gives you full access to all of our club's many helpful and fun features. Right now you are "registered guests".
Join, Pay dues here; https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...6019371/m/4461028692
You must be registered to join here; https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...6019371/m/6341051313
September 01, 2014, 11:16Herschel Fink
Thanks, Buster. I will join today. BTW, I subsequently found a post by member David Abbe on August 8, 2008. He included a link to an Ebay item (the link has since expired), but he included a photo of the item showing a double second handed 4992B similar to mine, although that one had a Montgomery dial signed "Hamilton Railway Special" (mine has the dial I described in my post, above). David asked the question, "Extreme Watchmaking, or Is This for Real"?
Unfortunately, there were no replies to his 2008 post. I don't doubt that my watch has been recased (by Hamilton, or privately?), but what do you think accounts for the working, double hacking seconds, synchronized 30 seconds apart? 4992B's don't have that. As David Abbe asked six years ago, is that an example of "extreme watchmaking" by someone, or is it the "real thing" (i.e. something the factory produced)?
Love to know what you or other members think.
September 01, 2014, 16:01Herschel Fink
UPDATE: Doing more searching on Ebay, I have found two recent "double seconds" 12 hour 4992B's, one in July, 2014, and a current listing which expires on September 4, 2014. These two are late serial numbers (one in the 70,000s and one in the 80,000s). Neither is marked "U.S. Govt." and the cases are base metal, running, but rough condition. The current listing is a "buy it now" at $500. This, along with the 2008 listing, seems to show that my piece, while uncommon, is not unique. Since the 4992Bs didn't have subsidiary seconds, I wonder how that was added to the movement (what needed to be added?).
September 02, 2014, 09:50Buster Beck
While I am not a watchmaker, I see where this could be done by the addition of the standard 12 hour dial and to replace the 2 24 hour hand gears with 12 hour "922" type gears, and adding a long 4th wheel pinion to support the lower seconds hand on a 4992B.
Hamilton never offered those type modifications nor did they re-case the 4992B's, it was all done by third party individual[s] interested in something a bit different I suspect......
Perhaps a watchmaker will give us an expert opinion[s].
September 02, 2014, 23:13Herschel Fink
Thanks for that, Buster. For what it's worth, there is a current eBay listing for a "civilian model" 12 hour dial (but no subsidiary seconds) 4992B (auction ends Sept. 3 at 17:00:00 PDT) being sold by a seller ("ratite"), who describes himself as a 30 year watchmaker who worked for Hamilton, and claims that the "going train" on the 24 hour 4992B's had to be changed for the 12 hour conversion, and he states: "This is a change that could only be done by Hamilton Watch Co." (He doesn't claim he did them, however, as he worked for the company in the 1980's.) Assuming he really knows what he's saying, that suggests that at least some of the 12 hour conversions were done by Hamilton. If true, I would think that Hamilton might have also done subsidiary seconds conversions, as well. With mine, and the three I found on eBay, at least four have that "complication." So, it's not a "one-off" by an individual in search of something different. Wish we had access to Hamilton records regarding this (or heard from a living member of the staff who actually did them).
September 03, 2014, 08:37Dr. Debbie Irvine
Movement number: 4C10174
September 03, 2014, 10:37Buster Beck
Interesting statement seller makes about working for Hamilton during the 1980's....
In 1969, the Hamilton Watch Company completely ended American manufacturing operations with the closure of its factory in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, shifting manufacturing operations to the Buren factory in Switzerland.
From 1969 to 1972, all new Hamilton watches were produced in Switzerland by Hamilton's Buren subsidiary. In 1971, the Buren brand was returned to Swiss ownership and by 1972, the Buren-Hamilton partnership was dissolved and the factory liquidated, due to decreased interest and sales of the Hamilton-Buren product.
In 1971, the Omega & Tissot Holding Company Société Suisse pour l'Industrie Horlogère (SSIH) purchased the Hamilton brand and utilized the Hamilton name for a number of branding efforts, including numerous quartz watches in the 1980s.
The Hamilton Watch Division became a subsidiary of HMW. The Hamilton Watch Company changed their name to HMW at the time they sold their Watch division to SSIH.
A team lead by John Bergey of Hamilton Watch in Lancaster, Pennsylvania developed the Pulsar, the world's first digital watch.
Through the enforced merger of SSIH and ASUAG Groups in 1984, Hamilton become a subsidiary of The Swatch Group.
The Hamilton name brand is currently owned by The Swatch Group Ltd. Swatch Group Hamilton brand watches have grown increasingly popular. Modern Hamilton watches no longer use proprietary "in house" movements, instead using movements made by The Swatch Group's movement making subsidiary, ETA.
In the late 1980s and early 1990s, Hamilton began a marketing campaign that resulted in a comeback. Vintage designs were coming back in style and Hamilton had a large portfolio of popular designs from the 1920s, 1930s, 1940s, and 1950s from which to draw. Playing on this resurgence, Hamilton replicated several of these original designs, such as the Ardmore, Boulton, Cabot, Piping Rock, Spur, Wilshire, and the 1957 Hamilton Ventura. These reissued watches incorporate a modern Swiss-made quartz movement.
In 2007, Hamilton introduced special editions of the Ventura to coincide with the 50th anniversary of the introduction of the electric watch. For the U.S. market, stainless steel quartz and automatic versions were released with a production of 1,957 each; for the Asian market, yellow and rose gold plated Ventura models were released with a total production of 1,000 each.
In 2009, Hamilton released three new Ventura models to celebrate what would have been the 75th birthday of Elvis Presley. Presley wore a Ventura in the movie Blue Hawaii. The automatic PVD version is an updated design of the Ventura.
So in summary, I don't put a lot of faith or stock in the sellers claims....
September 03, 2014, 10:48Herschel Fink
Good information, and thanks, Buster. I have a number of vintage Hamilton wristwatches, including an original solid 14k Ventura (which I run sparingly, not wanting to burn out the coil, as parts are almost impossible to obtain). The only person I know who currently repairs the electrics is a guy named Rene Rondeau in California. But, not inexpensive.
September 03, 2014, 10:52Herschel Fink
Here's an eBay sale back in 2008 that is similar to my 4992B (but not the Montgomery dial), with both the subsidiary seconds and the sweep.
September 03, 2014, 15:27Buster Beck
When and if you do a search on our IHC185 site putting in "12 hour Hamilton 4992B", you will find 25 or more threads/hits/topics here;https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...+hour+hamilton+4992B
If you enjoy the 4992B's and the many "conversions" that have taken place mostly after WWII, then you will be in your element for sure !!
One of my favorite threads within the 25 is this one;https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...581039592#7581039592
Rene Rondeau is one of our IHC185 members and a specialist on wrist watches.
September 03, 2014, 23:48Herschel Fink
Yes. Already been exploring! Rene re-did my Ventura last year.
March 13, 2015, 11:54Chris Davis
I'll add mine to the list.
Case: Keystone Base Metal 751672
The case back is worn to the point that I can only make out a few numbers and letters along the right side.
They are as follows:
Line 1: 0
Line 2: 992B
Line 3: 2843
Line 4: O
Line 5: 8072
line 6: Watch Co