I've read that like others, Elgin was only allowed to make watches in support of the war effort during WW2. I know this included time fuses, military watches and railroad standard watches (because transportation was an essential industry). I have been surprised however at the number and variety of Elgin watch movements produced during the war years and wondered just how strict this edict/practice was. Tonight I found this 1942 Lord Elgin listed for auction. According to elginwatches.org, there were 57,000 Lord Elgins made in 1942 and 76,000 in 1943. In 1944, the number was up to 156,000. That seems like a lot of premium watches!

Were some of these movements used in military models? Does anyone here have any thoughts about what "essential" purpose these might be for?

Ron

According to local new accounts, the last civilian watches Elgin assembled were in June 1942. The first shipments of civilian watches resumed in the fall of 1945, presumably production began a few months before that, possibly right after VE Day (in early May 1945).

Of course we all know about the variations in pairing serial numbers to actual dates of production. Also keep in mind that there were always a certain number of watches being held in wholesalers inventories and those that sat in the retailer's display cases awaiting sale. So from the consumer's point of view there was no distinct shutting off date for the production spigot.

Also, consider this tid bit. According the local newspaper, The Elgin Daily Courier News, 11/21/1964, Elgin began a serial numbering system in 1903 in which they essentially went up by one million each year regardless of whether or not a million were actually made. The obvious exception was during the 1930s when far less than a million were being produced annually and they merely went up, more or less, the actual number made. The same article states that prior to 1903 serial number tables date to within 4 or 5 years of actual production. Between 1903 and 1953 it was 1 or 2 years.

Bill, thank you for an informative response regarding Elgin WWII history.

From general observations, it seems that I have seen far more Elgin WWII military wristwatches than any other brand. For example, there seem to be far more Elgin A-11 pilot's watches than the same watch made by Waltham and Bulova.

Do you have any info regarding Elgin WWII production of the A-11, or other contracts?

Thanks,

Greg

Greg

I am nearly illiterate when it comes to military watches but I have read that the Elgin A-11 used the 8/0s 539, 554 and 580 grades. elginwatches.org shows the production for these as

539 460,000(418,000) 33 1940 1950 ? 8/0s s3f2h 15-16j
554 1,358,000(732,000) 69-3 1940 1951 ? 8/0s h3f7p 15-17j U-A1P
580 280,000(280,000) 21 1943 1944 ? 8/0s h3f7p 7j

I've added in paren's the number produced through 1945. The site also lists three other 8/0s made during this time and it would seem that (some of) these may have been used in the A-11:

532 93,900 30 1937 1944 ? 8/0s s3?2p 15-16j
555 602,000 42 1940 1955 ? 8/0s h3f7p 17j U-A1P LE/DLX/-
556 253,000 39-1 1940 1951 ? 8/0s h3?7p 21j U-A1P LE/-

Note that the grades 555 and 556 are sometimes marked LE and the 556 is a 21j movement. I wonder if these were also used in the A-11. It is these later two grades and the following 15/0s grades that prompted my original question.

558 306000 18 1944 1946 ? 15/0s h3f3p 17j U-A1P DLX
559 517000 36-1 1940 1946 ? 15/0s h3f3p 21j U-A1P LE

I am still wondering how these movements, especially the two 21j grades were used.

Ron

Thank you for the information about Elgin grades used in the A-11, Ron. Bill's comment about Elgin serial numbers appears to explain the 21 jewel movements. Given that I have never heard of a 21 jewel military Elgin wristwatch it is possible that non of them were in production during WWII. Either the interpretaton of serial number to date is off, or Elgin continued to make high grade wristwatches for the civilian market at a time it was not supposed to do so.

Best regards,

Greg

Marvin Whitney's book Military Timepieces, p. 545. lists the grade 556, 21J, wrist watch as a military issue. A-11, non-hacking movement. Apparently, from the military's Ser. No. AF45-666, it came in to use by them late in the war, i.e. 1945. The dial and hands appear is more civilian than military in disign. To my eye at least, the design is closer to post WWII wrist watch designs than pre-WWII models manufactured for the civilian market.

Hi Bill, I had forgotten about the strange "marriage" photo in MILITARY TIMEPIECES.

As you have noted, Whitney does have a picture of the dial and movement of an Elgin Grade 556 in his book,on page 545 as Figure 13. Next to the picture, is a short description of the watch and the markings on the back of the case it was found in, followed by a note that the watch was part of the Fred Hougham collection. It seems that Mr. Hougham provided images of numerous watches in the book.

However, Whitney does not include any mention of military use of the 556 in the main text of his work, which otherwise provides a detailed description of all of the U.S. military Elgin wristwatches in use from WWII through the 1950's.

The 21 jewel, Grade 556, had an off-set second hand, white "star" dial, and it is a non-hacking movement. Thus, the watch does not fit the A11 contract specs to be in the case it is residing in.

In my opinion, inclusion of a picture of this watch in Whitney's book is one of the low points in an otherwise excellent refferance. The watch on pg. 545, fig. 13 is clearly a post-war civilian dial and movement in a surplus military case.

There are other such images and captions which are questionable. Such as the two wire-lug watches on page 532, one Swiss the other an Elgin. These are described as "aviator" wristwatches. However, there is no mention of any evidence of govt. purchase of these watches nor are there any govt. markings on them. For that matter, there is no mention of these watches being the private purchase of some particular aviator. So, the watches could have been used by anyone in or out of the military back then, maybe in the cockpit, maybe in a trench, a ship... who knows? But by inclusion of these images with the description of them as "aviator" wristwatches a level of confusion has crept into an otherwise excellent text.

Best regards,

Greg