Hi All,

This isn't really a 'Military' timepiece in the strictest sense, but .....probably more of a military watch than some that are out there.

Fished this out of a box of my spares and caused me to let out a respectful sigh when I looked more closely at it, quite made the hairs on my neck and arms prickle too when I realised i was holding this piece of history ......... how I wish it could talk!!

Made my wife want to cry!

Our Oz members may also be quite interested with this connection - to a notable action of their countrymen during WW1 !

What thinks ye all ??

John

Fairly rusty looking old watch!

Actually quite a decent Swiss Lever movement for this type of watch, usually cheap cylinder escapements in them.

J.W.

Ok, getting closer to the piéce de Résistance now!

Check the dial, the gold cabuchons next to each numeral are aftermarket brass discs filled with luminous compound!
The crud around each is glue used to tack them on!

J.W.

Another shot of the dial with the bezel removed - Enamel dial BTW!.
J.W.

Curious case number too ....... 1914 2 !!!!!

J.W.

Ok folks, what do you think ........ what do you Really Feel??

Looks to me like the names could have been inscribed 'in the field'.
I'd never heard of 'Pronne' until I Googled it last night.
Looks almost a 'travellogue' of the Somme!

I felt quite choked holding this piece, still am right now in fact, thinking about where it had been, what it had witnessed, what it had lived through!

Who was its owner and how did he fare?

We'll never know of course, but we can still pay a silent tribute to him and, all his peers of that terrible time ......

.... and at the same time pay the same tribute to all our service personell and their families who will be experiencing Right Now - just the same personal anguish of those long gone.

My Grandfather saw his best friend die right next to him in the trenches, and was himself later gassed during the Somme conflict and invalided home.
Not a single family in the small Yorkshire village where he was raised escaped having someone being lost during WW1.

It could be said he was one of the 'lucky' ones, but he died at a very young 67 years of age from appalling injuries he never fully recovered from.

I dearly loved that man, and something like this brings all the memories of him flooding back!

I was 4 years old when he died ............!!

John.

Script on the dome reads:

Loos
Mons 1916
Ypres 1917
Arris (Arras?)
Pronne

I'll add the web url to the Pronne conflict shortly!
J.W.

http://www.awm.gov.au/1918/battles/1283.htm

http://www.awm.gov.au/1918/battles/mtstquentin.htm

John, Thank you for sharing your watch and the excellent research you did.

The retrofited luminous dots are an interesting inovation.

The information on the covet still looks good. It could easily have been lost to the advancing rust which attacked the outside of the case.

Are you going to bring your watch movement back to life? or is the hairspring rusted?

(above is an unpublished photo from my collection. A Michigan man in the trenches in 1917. He has an English made jacket and a French Hotchkis machinegun. It looks like he was cold.

Best regards,

Greg

Thanks Greg,
I'm not sure how far to take the watch actually, for fear of losing it's character.

I have a new mineral glass and gun blueing salts etc, but not sure about touching the case or dial further than changing the glass and re-attaching the loose dot.

The movement is actually a runner and very clean, but the mainspring is broken - an easy fix and clean really. The hairspring is excellent.

The inscriptions on the inner cuve have been mainly protected from the elements because these things do seal quite tightly, it was a job getting the back open and bezel off actually.

I've found on most of these gun metal wrists (and fobs), that even though the outer shell may look like garbage, the inner parts are often like new!

Thanks too for sharing the photo Greg, I think his expression says it all really!
Wonder if he ever got back to his folks ok?

Best Regards

John

That's a great piece, John. I understand your sentiments about being leery of destroying its character, and whatever you decide you have a real piece of history there.

John,
I think that you have a watch that has a significant history and as such I would not want to change it. Even the broken glasss has a story attached to it. I'd leave it alone, but all decisions and actions here are in the very personal category. Perhaps best to sit on the decision for a while!
Good luck with it.

Peter

Clyde & Peter,
Thanks for the comments, which I share totally, even down to the broken glass.
For the moment, it's got a drawer all to itself, and tucked up safe!

I gave it to my 83 year old Mother in Law to look at yesterday at dinner, and the first thing she said after reading the script on the back, was it made all the hairs on her arms prickle!

In her childhood of course, the country was even then, still reeling from the loss of so many men in that terrible war.
Normally a very taciturn lady, she held my wife and I spellbound as she recounted some of her childhood memories!

Her opinion on the watch, was that it probably belonged to someone with some authority on the battlefield, especially as in those days, only fairly wealthy individuals and families could afford a watch like that anyway!

I made a similar assumption from a different angle, in that a footsoldier probably wouldn't have used or needed a watch, as they generally went where and when ordered.
Would be interested in other folks opinions on that!

I know the watch was local, so she thinks it was probably owned by someone serving in the Green Beret, which was formed and billeted not far from here.
I thought originally, perhaps it was someone serving in the the Hull Pals or Yorkshire Pals regiments.
If only there was a name on it!

John.

The above image shows an American Army private with a pocket-watch in a wrist-adapter. These special straps were used by all sides in WWI, and it suggests a WWI era alternative.

From researching WWI images, it's possible to see that it was not unusual for enlisted men and their officers to own watches. Enlisted men often had inexpensive watches, but not always. Officers more often had the funds for higher grade timepieces.


The original images in an earlier thread might also be of interest here:

WWI watch images

Regarding repair of the watch, I would suggest a little oil and a brass brush to clean the rust enough to stop it from growing, but not too much. If it was in my hands, I would not change the glass, but I would repair the movement and give it a second hand.

There is something special about holding a watch with that much history in your hand and seeing that it still works. Makes me think of men like the "Old Contemptables," who kept fighting no matter what the odds.

Respectfully,

Greg

Great photo's Greg, I'll have to hunt through some of my books and see if I can find any WW1 photo's of British soldiers wearing wristwatches.

The case of the watch is quite dry, so no real risk of the rust worsening.
I'm reluctant to touch it really, as taking anything off the surface would be like removing its history.

The glass is a problem as it's crumbling and dropping bits into the bezel which isn't so good. I may change this but keep the old bits with it.

Ditto the mainspring too, was it the original spring as wound daily on the Somme battlefields? Strange to think of it that way.
I feel the same way about my Great Grandmother's watch too (the same watch that originally got me into horology and genealogy!), was it the same mainspring that was wound daily by her hands?

Do other folks feel this way about their special watches or am I just being a berk!

I feel I may have made one gigantic blunder that I try not to think about too much!
I sold a leather watch strap a week or so ago, and I've the most horrible feeling that it belonged with the Somme watch!
Had I discovered the watch before the strap, I'd have kept them together, but too late now - it's in Italy!

John

Another view of the strap'
J.W.

Sorry about the images, don't know what's happened to them, seem to have gone huge?
This one actually has a Waltham fob watch inserted, should have been the gunmetal watch really!
J.W.

John,

I feel your pain...if the strap belonged with the Somme watch that is terrible!

I've recently been reading the classic tome "A Rifleman Went To War" by H.W. McBride who was an American who went to Canada to enlist in the Canadian Army during the early stages of WWI.

McBride's account of trench warfare including trench raiding and sniping and machine guns and shelling and everything else really makes for fascinating reading. McBride was one of those rare birds who actually rather enjoyed the experience of trench warfare- at least the fighting, but he also describes the terrible weather and living conditions and high mortality rate of those in the trenches. I think he probably belonged to that era- he was in his thirties during the Great War- that regarded human frailty and emotion in men as "sob sister" stuff and not worthy of a "warrior."

Your watch is a wonderful artifact from that bloody epoch. Thanks again for sharing it.

Don't kick yourself John, that strap could have been used with any watch. They were popular in WWI. If you keep looking another will turn up.

The feeling you have about not changing anything is now the norm in modern musiums. So, you'r not alone. I get that feeling sometimes with the weapons and watches in my collection.

It was esp. spooky one evening, after I got a WWI flashlight working - same bulb, same big glass lense, shining a bright strange light in my basement, same as it did in WWI. It made me think of shows like The Twilight Zone!

Thank you for the images of the strap, it's a nice example of the type.

Best regards,
Greg

Clyde, Greg, Thanks for your comments, really appreciated.

I'm having a hard time Not kicking myself over the strap, as both the strap and watch came from the same source originally.
I'm only assuming they were together once, but there's a good possibility they were.
The strap was a really heavy duty piece of kit and had seen a lot of use.

Fortunately it's gone to a good home and to a person who collects WW1 wristwatch straps.
The strap in this thread is now housing an Ingersol I'm informed!

I am in Email contact with the person that bought it, as he writes good English which is very fortunate.
I'm due a reply to his last message, so I'll ask if he would be interested in registering on the forum to post some photo's of his collection.

I could almost feel the hairs on your arms prickle for you Greg when you mentioned using that flashlight for the first time!
Would that be considered 'Spookiness by Proxy'
Strange how these things grab us.

I like to think that sparing a few thoughts for all the folks of so many denominations that used these artifacts, even though unknown, keeps them alive in some way.
As the saying goes:
'People only truly die when they're forgotten'!

John

The quote is --- "lions led by donkeys" R.I.P.