17j marked on Mont- porc. dial in unmarked Base metal Military case with dustcover. Any interest or collectability?

There is interest of Course. Some pictures of the watch, the dial and the movement will help a lot.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'unmarked base metal military case'. Is the dial or the movement marked with military markings? Photos will help.

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It is a Waltham model 1617 pocket watch. There were two models, the 1609 which was the 9 jewel version and the 1617 which was the 17 jewel version. They were basic Army pocket watches procured by the Ordinance Department for general issue to Army soldiers and officers who needed pocket watches. Fancier models were supplied by Hamilton (a 992B 21 jewel railroad grade pocket watch) and Elgin (a 19 jewel railroad grade B.W. Raymond 372 with damascened, gold jewel setting, etc.)

Your example appears to have had its case replaced at some point since it should have Ordinance Department markings on the back. Or perhaps it might be a post-war example of Waltham using up unsold stock by selling them in unmarked cases to the civilian market.

This is worth keeping in a military collection. The movement, hands and dial are in excellent condition. My late 1941- early 1942 Elgin is the 17 jewel with ordnance markings, and I have a Waltham 9 Jewel "adjusted". They all testify to the durability of these war watch designs. Yours was made later on after the early hectic ramp-up, and shows it's military roots well even if it is a post WW II sale.
If you ever want to part with it I have little doubt you will fetch a good return.

Refer to TM 9 -1575, War Department Maintenance Manual,6 April 1945. Your watch is at p.118 ff.It was one of two PW issued to troopss as required as field watches.the counterpart watch was done by Elgin. In the ealy 60's I was issued one of the Elgins. As the Sqadron Communications Officer, (Arm'd Cav), I was responsible to disperse "correct" time to the sqadron. The Elgin did rather well. I still have it.

This manual is one of the best parts assembly details manuals for Elgin, Waltham, and Hamilton.

You can download one here...

Click For: TM 9-1575 War Department Technical Manual

This is your waltham section, first page

I have a couple early WWII Elgins, both of which exhibit the "rush to war" we were engaged in at that time.

The sweep sec. late 1941-earley 1942 Elgin was built on top of a 21 Jewlel BWR, and they had a wierd backlash adjuster to make up for the Huuuuge gear ratio shift to get the sweep second to work. All of that was mounted with a micro-bridge that looks like it was fitted with a file and jeweler's saw. Absolutely no relation to the delicate design of the sweep sec. Elgin "Doctor's Watch" of a much earlier time.

The "plain" 17 Jewel Elgin (s/n 41432064) was a beautiful gold-plated movement, and was unceremoniously dragged out of regular production after Pearl, and "converted" to a war watch with radium hands and dial all in a "civilian" gold case. There was NO TIME in early 1942 to mess with special cases, our troops needed good watches IMMEDIATELY!
The manual page for Elgins even shows these gold filled style cases.
As for the Sweep sec Elgin watch converted in earl;y 1942 (S/N 40295391) from a 21j RR grade BWR, that WAS engraved "U S Army A.C.", but little mention of it exists in the manuals.

I think whoever engraved "U S ARMY A.C." was in microfiche training. I hadda put a magnifier in front of my Macro to get it!

Anyway, all of this explains why if you ever want to part with the Waltham, there is a nice spot for it here next to some real "old friends"!

Hi Folks

It is good at last to see what a Grade 1617 looks like. As I have posted before in the "Serial Numbered Accessory Items Data-Base" there seems to be some errors in the Waltham Database.

I have a friend who has a number of Waltham Navy Deck watches from WWII. They are 16s OF with a black dial. From the Waltham serial number database they are all Model 1908. However of the 13 pws the database shows:
8 as grade 1609 - 9j
4 as grade 1617 - 17j
1 as grade 1621 - 21j.

I have personally checked them all and the lot are labelled 9j on their movements and counting the jewels, they are all 9j. All but two are called Premier.

Below is a list of serial numbers and their database details (movement details):
30706014 - 21j (9j)
30468206 - 17j (Premier, 9j)
30812847 - 17j (Premier, 9j)
30465963 - 17j (Premier, 9j)
30816879 - 17j (Premier, 9j)
30897121 - 9j (Premier, 9j)
30896990 - 9j (Premier, 9j)
31233681 - 9j (Premier, 9j)
30894849 - 9j (Premier, 9j)
31534560 - 9j (9j)
31234608 - 9j (Premier, 9j)
30897906 - 9j (Premier, 9j)
31232041 - 9j (Premier, 9j)

My own one #31477484 is a 9J (9j).

What does the grade 1621 look like and what is it called.

Gordon

I never seen one either. Just the info in Shugarts book.
Think there would be any interest in an Elgin 17j Military 16s? I have a couple other miltary pocket watches I would rather auction here than Ebay.

I would be very interested in your other pieces if you decide to auction them. I am sure you would do as well here as in eBay for them.

No there is no mention of a hacking Waltham in the manual, and I just finished using that as reference to rebuild a 7j 1899 (same stuff there) as a gift to my Grandson. (pic during re-assembly)