Hello to all,
I finally managed to add to my military collection one of those watches in the wooden box with a porthole...I am subjecting it to your attention hoping to spark some attention.

My first observation is that the box does not appear to be of the same quality of all the others I've seen. The felt holding the watch is quite ragged, the latch is "arts and crafts style, the wood doesn't seem to be mahogany, and the construction doesn't make use of dovetails, just nails and glue. Finally, there is no serial number on the outside plate and on the inside paper label you can barely read a date: 22 Oct 1977.

The watch that came with the box is an Elgin BWR S/N 41757517, nickel movement. Do they belong together? What I mean is, can this kind of watch be defined as "deck watch", or would this box be normally holding something like a 3992B?

Thank you for any comment you'll be kind enough to give me.
Peter

Hello Peter,
Thank you for your post and photos of your watch. The Elgin is comparable to a Hamilton 4992b and was used in the same fashion by the US Military. I have not yet seen a 24 hr GCT Elgin BW Raymond used by the British military during the WWII era. The wooden box could quite possible be original but maybe someone may have added the felt or changed the latch at a later time for repair or restoration. These boxes were mostly made for transit and not permanent storage or use like a Hamilton Model 22 pocket watch chronometer case for example, so the "quality" is not as great as other chronometer or deck watch boxes I have seen. The case you have is indicative of "British" military deck watches not American navigation watches like your Elgin GCT. I think the set may have been pieced together to create a nice presentation. The Hydrographic tag as well looks to be a reproduction as "Broad arrows" were not used on those tags, but I may be mistaken on that. The Hydro tag also belongs on the inside of the case just above the watch in the bottom half of the case where the white dated hydrographic tag now sits. The dated tag belongs in the brass screwed in holder on the inner lid. Very nice watch with such wonderful history. I sure love those Elgin GCT's! Could we get a photo of the rear markings? Regards, M

Your Elgin would quite possibly have been used in a case featured and talked about in this thread:

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...0103944/m/6393950557

Hello Michael, Thank you for taking the time to answer my post. Yes, I must say I bought the watch despite the case. I already have the MIL Elgin BWR with the white 12 hour dial and I figured this one would be the logical companion together with the 4992B and the 3992B.

The writing on the back is very difficult to photograph because, like in all Elgins, it is very lightly imprinted so here it is:
AN5740
MFRS PART NO-1790
CONT. NO. W535-AC-37880
SER NO. AF-43-6909
ELGIN
I find the location of the HYDRO label outside the box strange too, but it seems to have been there from day one. The presence of the broad arrow on it is questionable, but if it would be a fake who and why would go to the trouble? I may have a very early or very late issue, what do you think? Everything else seems to be original, there is no sign of repairs. It came without glass, so I had a replacement made. The screw-in holder is too small to carry the paper tag.

Yes, I agree with you about the watch having been originally housed in a vibration damping case.
As you can see this one has the 23 hours dial...now I need to get the 24!
Regards,
Peter

Hello Peter,

I do agree with you in regards to who would go through the trouble of recreating these Hydrographic tags. But we all know that if someone can make something for $2 and sell it for $20 they will do it. You can actually buy these tags on eBay as well. Other companies, for an extra fee they will engrave any number you want in the serial number section. These Hydrographic tag numbers should coralate with its original housed watch in some way. The number may match a rear case number or even the movement serial number. On the first page of this thread Werner Rosier shows his example compared to mine and all his numbers match, movement serial number, rear case engraving and Hydro tag.
Also there are variants on Hydro tags as well:
"Deck watches" had Hydro tags with the engraving: H.S.527-3637 while
"Chronometer Watches" Hydro tags were engraved with H.S.527-3636.

I look forward to seeing more examples from you and other members on this interesting subject. I am sure we can all learn something from each others pieces and opinions. That is why we are all here.....to learn. I hope to learn something new every day. Lots of help and good people here. Happy 4th of July to all my fellow patriots. Regards, M

Hi Mike,Peter
The Ministry of Defence, Hydrographic Dept tag shown on Peter´s case is a reproduction, how do I know, well I bought one from ebay to find out how near to original they are

Easily differentiated when seeing them side by side, apart from the white background where the serial No. should be engraved.
Made on Aluminium printed 3M Cards, and they weren´t cheap, I paid £30 for mine after negotiations

Thank you Werner for your photos and input. Beutiful examples as always. Regards, M

I forgot to mention, when the brown paper is peeled off the back of the card, then the card has a sticky back, once on, it´s hard to remove again without damage.

Hello Michael and Werner,
Thank you for raining on my parade ,so I got myself a fake, like I suspected from the beginnig. What I don't understand is why whoever made those reproductions did not copy them exactely like the original, why add the broad arrow and change the serial number location from a frame to a white space?? I am sure they could have, if they wanted. I think there is more on this subject than the eye can see. Unfortunately the "3M" backing on that plate seems to be too modern and recent to relate to the boxes.

I would really like to get to the bottom of this, is my box unique or are there others out there?
Anyway, my 3992B looks very good in it and that's where she is going to live from now on. I'll leave it to the future generations to sort out the problem.
Best regards,
Peter

That's what we're doing right now Peter. Trying to sort out all the problems. I sure the future generations will still have unanswered questions. M

Michael, please don't get me wrong, the only reason I mentioned "future generations" is because I do not intend to get rid of the box during my lifetime, so it will be some time (I hope) before somebody else will ask questions about it.

And, since I'm here, I would like to add couple of remarks on the subject:
Why was the HYDRO. plate stuck in the "wrong" place when it would have been normal to copy the other boxes and put it inside?
And then, (not that this would stop anybody) I quote from Wikipedia:
"Section 4 of Public Stores Act of 1875 makes it illegal to use the Broad Arrow on any goods without permission" and it is defined as a Criminal Offence.

If only that box could speak!
Best Regards to All,
Peter

Hi Peter, maybe one explanation for the tag on the outside of the box is that it was just unable to fit within the inside. Make a quick measurement of the tag and then the inside lower section where the tag should be to compare. If it would not fit than the entire case is in question as not original. If it would fit, maybe the person who assembled the set was just not knowledgable enough. A USAAF navigation watch put into a British Deck watch box is the first clue to that. The area that fits these tags should be roughly 75mm x 45mm. Regards. M

HI Michael,
The space is 77.6 x 43 while the plate is 71.4 x 38.5 so it would fit inside with space to spare.

I think I found a logic reason for that plate to be on the outside....the white space for the serial number was supposed to be filled by hand in accordance with the serial # of the watch that would have been fitted to the box. If the plate would have been inside this operation would have been very difficult, if not impossible.
I am convinced this plate & box are just a variation of the transit case concept.

The space inside was supposed to contain the paper record of the watch's service history and this would have hidden the plate...Then there is also the following consideration : when they decided to use impact punches to apply the serial numbers, they could not have done it if the plate was mounted on the cover, because of danger of breaking the glass, so, to have a solid backing, they glued the plate in the space where, in my modest opinion, it was not supposed to be.

Of course the big question is: Did the empty boxes and the HYDRO..plates came from stores separately, or already assembled together?

The fact that mine contained the wrong watch is inconsequential, God only knows how many hands that box went thru in all these years! I myself changed the watch inside.

I was hoping for some feedback from our friends from the U.K. where some of the action took place.

Regards,
Peter

I would like to add that all my speculations and assumptions could just be totally untrue, the fact is, I'm trying to play devil's advocate to explain some issues without solid informations and to provoke some thinking.

I would like to thank Werner for the pictures and for the explanation concerning the "non standard" HYDRO..plate, there must be a few of them around and the more we know, the better it is.

I did some searching on the web to see if I could find a box like mine and I found it. At least now I can say mine is not the only one. The one shown below houses a Rolex Cal 548,15jewels,approx.1940.

Regards,
Peter

WHY DON'T THESE ELGIN DECK WATCHES HAVE RAILROAD APPROVED?

BECAUSE THERE AREN`T MANY SHIPS WITH A RAILROADTRACK GOING AROUND THEM!...

Seriously though, these were made and delivered to the British forces/Royal Navy!