In the image below is a late WWII Junghans blind flight clock with chronograph. A timepiece for pilots, it is fitted with the Junghans J30 Bz 30 hour movement with a 15 min. chronograph timer.

This and other various timepieces intended to be used on board aircraft were known officially as, “Borduhr” - loosely translated as, ‘timepiece for on-board.’

The pointer in the bezel ring, here pointing to 9, may be set to mark the time of take-off by turning the brown plastic bezel. The chronograph timer is activated by pushing in the ovoid button below the winding knob. The lever to the right of the winding knob is pulled down to set the hands, much the same as a lever-set pocket watch.

There are a number of slight variations of this timepiece, the most noticeable being the position of the setting lever, style of hands and markings. Late models used increasingly more inexpensive zinc components and less internal refinements. After the war and into more modern times, the West German Luftwaffe continued to use nearly identical timepieces.

Blind flight clocks were mounted either on the instrument panel or in the center of the pilot’s control column.

Relics in the above image include things which would have been found in the cockpit of a German fighter, such as a Luftwaffe pilot’s qualification badge, goggles, and a model 1938H pistol. There is also an official wartime German postcard of the ME 109 fighter. Blind flight clocks were used in the ME 109 fighter the ME 110 destroyer and similar WWII German aircraft.

Best regards,
Greg

Interesting timepiece Greg.You have other interesting millitary items also.
You must have been collecting for some time, to acquire the items you have shown.
Interesting posts.

Thank you for your comments. Tracking the historical context of the relics I have found over the last 40+ years is almost as enjoyable as finding a new artifact.

Good question Lindell regarding the term, "blind flight clock." This term was used in the book, GERMAN MILITARY TIMEPIECES by Knirim, so I repeated it.

Not being a pilot, I'm not exactly sure of what I'm talking about, but I'll try to do the best I can. During periods of limited visibility a pilot must fly with instruments only. One of the instruments is a chronograph timer. As a pilot banks to turn the aircraft, the chronograph timer is used along with other instruments to help determine if the plane is on course.

I have been told that chronographs and stop watches were also used to determine air speed by measuring the time it takes the shadow of the plane to go from one known location on the ground to another. However, that would not be a "blind-flight" use.

Maybe a pilot could jump in and tell us if I have any of this right or not.

Best regards,
Greg

The shadow thing is correct for checking "ground speed" there is a differance in ground speed and "airspeed" the shadow trick is for checking the differance.
(as it was explained to me by a pilot much older then myself

In the image is another common WWII Luftwaffe Borduhr aircraft clock; the Kienzel Bo UK 2-1, Spec No. Fl23886-1. This 8 day timepiece does not have a chronograph function. The hinged case swings out to the left to permit winding and setting from the back, the same as the Army Message Center Clock. Care must be taken with these clocks given that late-war cases were often made of cast zinc which may brake easily. Early examples have more rounded mountings and brass cases.

The image includes relics reflecting the historical contest of the clock. To the left is a WW2 German postcard of a Dornier Do 215 bomber. To the left is another vintage German postcard of a Luftwaffe military band playing in front of two Junckers Ju 52 transport aircraft. 8 day clocks were often carried on such aircraft for use by the navigator. On board the Ju 52 an 8 day clock was positioned at the on-board radio station. In the image, the clock rests upon a pilot’s goggle case along with a rank insignia. A Luftwaffe cap eagle is to the left. Not too visible on the right is a small pre-war propaganda pin upon which is stamped (in German), ‘The German people must become a nation of pilots.’

Best regards,
Greg

Here is another version of the Kienzle FL23886-1. In a painted brass case, it never had a manufacture plaque riveted to the case. Instead, the serial number 10502 is impressed next to the winder knob.

Regards,
Ron Canaday (new member on 01Jan08)

Thanks for the nice photos of these great looking clocks! I am a pilot while there is a great deal more to 'flying blind' Greg's explaination is a good way to explain it to a non-pilot. While most pilots love 'Ceiling Unlimited Visibility Unlimited' conditions in reality this is not often the case. Modern aircraft have lots of electronic stuff in the cockpits that make life a lot easier than in the old days for the times when you are boring holes through the clouds or the rain, but a pilot still needs to be able to get around when all you see out of your windscreen is a lot of nothing and you need to rely exclusively on your instruments to keep from seeing what happens when you try to bore a hole through the earth with your aircraft.

My question is whether there is a way to tell the difference between a Luftwaffe clock that was used in an aircraft as opposed to a Luftwaffe clock that was mounted in one of those little wooden stands and used as a message center clock. I am not an expert at all of these, but from what I have seen in photos I can not tell the difference. Did the Luftwaffe just procure a large number of one-design clocks from Junghans and Kienzle and then install some of them in aircraft and the rest in wooden stands to use as message center, radio room, etc. clocks or is there a difference? Also, were any of these ever used in Luftwaffe cars and trucks or is there some other kind of clock that was used in ground vehicles? If so does anyone know what?

Thanks!

Great images Ron. The brass cases are far superior to the late-war cast zink. The zink cases can more easily brake.

Jim: As far as ground clocks vs. aircraft clocks - An easy test is that everything used on board German aircraft had a stock number starting with "FL...", the FL stands for Flieger (flyer). The message center clocks in wooden cases for ground forces are marked "Eigentum der Luftwaffe."
That is, 'property of the Luftwaffe' But these clocks did not have an FL stock number, thus they were not intended for on board aircraft.

Given the politics of WWII Germany the mission of the Luftwaffe was expanded to fit the ego of their leader, Herman Georing. The Luftwaffe had extensive ground forces in combat, especially in the Eastern front. The Luftwaffe also had the Herman Georing tank division.

I'm not sure what sort of timepieces were used in Luftwaffe ground vehicles. The Luftwaffe message center ground forces clock may have been removed from the wood table top case and used in vehicles-but on this I'm only speculating.


Best regards,
Greg

Hi,

After a couple lucky eBay finds got me started, I was finally able to aquire examples of all 5 versions of the Junghans FL23885 clock (as illustrated in Ulric of England's "GERMAN MILITARY TIMEPIECES of WORLD WAR TWO, VOLUME 2."

per Ulric:
v1_1938-1940
v2_1940?
v3_1940-1941
v4_1941-1942?
v5_1942-1945

-Ron

Thanks Ron, you have a great collection.

For those who are not as familure with these items, the last one "v5" is the most common. There appear to be minor variations in the construction of the V5 intended to save time and materials.

Best regards,

Greg

Hi,

I should add that I do not know how authoritative the Ulric categorization system is.
-Although not categorized as in Ulric's book, the Konrad Knirim book illustrates some examples that seem to be "hybrids" of the different versions.
-I also have a "hybrid", consisting of a v5 bezel on an otherwise v4 clock.

I would be very surprised if wartime overhaul shops did not mix parts to get them functioning again.

Ron

there are at least 15 different versions of the Junghans... I will try to ost pictures here when I get around to photographing them... ps I really like the display stands!

Hi Oliver,

I am very very interested in seeing your pictures of the 15 different versions of the Junghans clock.
I would be very happy and grateful to see them!

Kind Regards,

skyline15

Here is my pair of Schlenker-Grusen clocks.

I like the outer perimeter adjustable pointer, but they are often broken off.
-The small clock's outer pointer was fabricated this year.

Ron

I got this one as a gift from my grandfather and he got it in his WW2 service. Unfortunately I don't know much more about it but the numbers glow in the dark and it works well. I did read the above from Greg Crockett's post:

"Jim: As far as ground clocks vs. aircraft clocks - An easy test is that everything used on board German aircraft had a stock number starting with "FL...", the FL stands for Flieger (flyer). The message center clocks in wooden cases for ground forces are marked "Eigentum der Luftwaffe."
That is, 'property of the Luftwaffe' But these clocks did not have an FL stock number, thus they were not intended for on board aircraft."

This clock has an FL number and the "Eigentum der Luftwaffe" inside. I assume its aircraft then. I'm not sure if my grandfather made the wooden part of this clock or if it was intended to look like this. Any information you guys may have would be great. Thanks.

-Alex

Alex, thats a nice "stationsuhr" you have there, in its original case. Stationsuhr meaning station-clock made for the office in the barracks or airfield.
<"Jim: As far as ground clocks vs. aircraft clocks - An easy test is that everything used on board German aircraft had a stock number starting with "FL...", the FL stands for Flieger (flyer). The message center clocks in wooden cases for ground forces are marked "Eigentum der Luftwaffe."
That is, 'property of the Luftwaffe' But these clocks did not have an FL stock number, thus they were not intended for on board aircraft.">

not quite so, Fl mark meant it belonged to the airforce/luftwaffe and the number is nothing more than a Ref. No.(for tracking and ordering) as every army, navy and airforce had and still has.

The clocks are even as till this day made in the same form and shape. If you want extensive information on these clocks, a friend of mine has a site here: War-Timers 1
War-Timers II

Another Link to the new Bundeswehr clock;
Bäuerle BW Stationsuhr
Stations/Borduhren

Have fun researching!

Thank you for that information Werner! I'm glad it's in its original case and now I have more to tell my family about it.

After looking at your posts on this forum now I really want to pick up a few vintage German watches, can you recommend a good site for me to buy from? Thanks again.

-Alex

Alex, are you looking for pre war or post war watches?
as to stationsuhren...here´s one from the modern Bundeswehr on sale now; E:1123" target="_blank">Stationsuhr

Here´s a rare Kienzle "Borduhr" ...rare I say because it was fitted in a civilian J52, to differentiate by the white dial and no Fl numbers.
Also a Junghans Borduhr used in the Messerschmidt Me 109´s

Alex, here´s a technical drawing of your "Stationsuhr" I found somewhere for you;

Hi Alex,

To add a little historical perspective to the use of your ground forces clock, during WWII the Luftwaffe was not limited to aircraft, they also had extensive ground combat forces. Luftwaffe ground combat units were deployed like regular army and SS combat forces. To add further confusion to this mess, there was even a Luftwaffe tank regiment.

Reports from the Eastern front indicate that Soviet commanders considered Luftwaffe ground forces to be inferior to the regular German army and SS. I don’t know if this was true or not, but I have been told that the Red Army often attacked Luftwaffe units first. (Which might explain why Col. Kink and Sgt. Shultz on Hogan's Heros were so afraid of being sent to the Eastern Front!)

In WWII period photographs, clocks like yours are often seen in radio communications trucks, which had a special bracket for them. However, as Werner mentioned, these clocks were made to be used in various other places.