In a lot i purchased i found this little baby. Can some one tell me more about the HACK was it designed for the forces? at present there is not dial,hands or case, i do have the balance. more after info on it... 539 15-16j gold flashed... 8's...

Hi Francis.

The Elgin 539 movement was used in large numbers of WW II era military wristwatches. Most of them were Type A-11 U.S. Army Air Forces Navigation wristwatches which are among the most commonly found wristwatches from the war and despite their name they were issued to all kinds of personnel in the U.S. Army Air Forces. Although the movement is marked 15j it actually has 16j with the extra one being for the second hand. I don't know why they are marked like this.

If you have a copy of Marvin Whitney's book, "Military Timepieces" you can see a photo of the movement and of whole watch at the top right of page 540. These A-11s were supplied in large numbers not only by Elgin with various movements include the 539s, but also Waltham and Bulova. If you would like an interesting new collecting area, trying to obtain one of each variety from each maker would be a fun and not very expensive challenge.

You can also see photos of A-11s by searching on this site or by going on the web, but when you search be aware that there is another WW 2 timepiece that is also called an A-11 which is an aircraft cockpit clock that went in the instrument panel of most U.S. aircraft of the war. It can be a bit confusing unless you are aware that they used similar naming systems for watches and aircraft clocks.

Regards,
Jim

Hi Jim, thanks mate for that info, much appericated. I know little about them for now.. will find out more thanks Francis

quote:

If you would like an interesting new collecting area, trying to obtain one of each variety from each maker would be a fun and not very expensive challenge

Jim, I´m surprised at that statement, have you ever tried to get hold of a Longines A-11?
It took me the best part of 2 years to find one and I had to dig deep into my pockets.

Hi Werner.

I have not heard of Longines making A-11s. In reading Whitney I do not see a reference to these, and the contract specifications for A-11s that Whitney copies on page 565 require they have a black dial with radium 5 minute markings. The dial on yours does not seem to meet the A-11 contract specification requirements. Also, the markings on the back of your example seem to be uneven and done by hand which is different from the typical even and straight markings seen on A-11s. Do you have a reference which shows this particular A-11 variety?

Best,
Jim

quote:

I have not heard of Longines making A-11s. In reading Whitney I do not see a reference to these, and the contract specifications for A-11s that Whitney copies on page 565 require they have a black dial with radium 5 minute markings. The dial on yours does not seem to meet the A-11 contract specification requirements. Also, the markings on the back of your example seem to be uneven and done by hand which is different from the typical even and straight markings seen on A-11s. Do you have a reference which shows this particular A-11 variety?

Best,

Hi Jim,
look here

and here of course!

Here´s another ref. from James E. Delgado
Posted September 28, 2009 10:40 here



Longines Type A-11 U.S. Army AC New Arrival

Very rare Longines type A-11 military with hack set . Movement is a caliber 12L with 15 jewels ..just serviced and running perfect. Case is three piece with screw bezel and screw back and measures 30.8mm x 38.7mm and comes with brand new military style canvas strap. back reads U.S. Army AC, watch navigation hack, serial number 41-537 ,order number W.535A.C. 16036, specification no.94-27834, mfgr's assy. dwc. no 12/68 , Longines/Wittnauer watch company , Inc. New York. Rare US military watch navigation hack produced by Longines for the US Army Air Corp.

SOLD Item # 1449-041

Yes, it's real and rare. Probably rarer than the Longines Weems Type A-11. I am still looking for one for my collection. Should you ever decide to sell it, let me know! Unfortunately, Whitney's book as good as it is, is still lacking many examples and full of errors.

Ok so how many watch makers made the A-11? since i have the Elgin how many more do i have to collect lol to make a set? Will i get there before i am 90? I have seen military parts for the watches so can normal parts be used?

Here´s another one you´ll have a hard time finding. My Longines Weems A-11 with marked bridge U.S Army A.C.
Seconds hand is wrong colour and the Caseback with Nomenclature polished to death





So if you´re thinking of collecting all, go see your bank manager first, even if he´s cooperative, you´ll have a hard time finding these rare pieces.

And thanks James for your assistance.
Regards

Thanks, Werner.

What I am looking for is a copy of the specifications that was part of the U.S. Army purchase order for these or a similar official documentation. On the first webpage you linked, there are many non-military watches being offered as military watches by that seller and one would need to know which are which based on one's own expertise as the seller seems to be engaging in some creative marketing on some of them. In addition, the seller carefully did not post a photo of the all important case back markings for some reason, though when I took a look at several other watches I noticed he included such markings on watches that are supposed to have them and he did not include such photos on ones where I would not expect to see such markings.

On the second webpage, there is more useful information in that both James and Lau Siew posted photos of their examples with the case backs. However, when I magnify their photos on my computer screen I notice that theirs both have very even and professionally done engraved lettering of the markings on the case backs that I would expect on such watches. My question about the markings on your example refers to the engraving appearing to be uneven with some letters being larger than others and some of the lines in the letters being wavy or crooked, with the overall effect of it being done by hand rather than the typical professional engraving one sees on U.S. military watches. In the third link James says that the example he shows likely has a forged back engraving and I would strongly agree expecially for the reason that you would never see the U.S.A.A.C. mis-spell their own name. This suggests to me that his odd example is more likely a civilian watch where someone tried to add markings to make it more valuable.

I am not saying that Longines did not make A-11 watches especially since the two that James and Lau Siew show suggest they may have, but what I am looking for is some written documentation in the form of the official Army specifications or contract wording or something similar.

quote:

I notice that theirs both have very even and professionally done engraved lettering of the markings on the case backs that I would expect on such watches. My question about the markings on your example refers to the engraving appearing to be uneven with some letters being larger than others and some of the lines in the letters being wavy or crooked, with the overall effect of it being done by hand

Hi Jim,
maybe I should have posted this picture instead, I can´t see anything wrong with the engravings, but maybe you were irritated by the unusual angle of photography:


Here are a few more pictures of the weems, in conjunction with their textbook and navigational aids, all once belonging to the original owner and WW2 pilot.

Thanks, Werner.

The new photo helps, but perhaps it is just my monitor. For example, I am seeing the letter 'O' in the word 'SPECIFICATION' in the sixth line seeming to be noticeably lower than the rest of the letters on yours where it is not on the other examples. Or the letter 'E' in the word 'TYPE' in the third line seeming to have the top and bottom horizontal lines seeming to slant slightly inward towards the center line where they appear to be parallel in the other examples. And, there are a number of other letters that seem to be unlike the ones in the other examples. You are probably right that it is just the photo or my monitor, but this is what I am seeing which is why I was asking.

Best,
Jim

Another hard to find example is the Le Coultre A-11;

First of all, i want to say thank you to every one for sharing, the photos are awesome.Werner, James, Lau wow thanks.... I have a book called the "American Air Navigator" by Charles Mattingly.... it doesnt have the same detail as your book thou....i am not sure if i will go downt this path and collect them but we will see.

Lau Siew Ming, good to see you here and thank you for showing us yet another of these rare pieces. I would also be glad if you could add a picture of the back of your Longines to clarify the authenticity, as Jim apparantly still isn´t convinced these watches are authentic.
As one can quite clearly see, these engravings were not done by machine, maybe that´s the reason for his disbelief.
Jim, I´m not a professional photographer and all of my photos were taken from an angle to capture light and dark shadings on the nomenclature. I will construct something where I can take photos without an angle, maybe the quality will be better.
Its so hard to take reasonable fotos of a watch like the Longines A-11 which is only 31mm in diameter, or the Weems which is smaller still, at 28mm in diameter.

Regards

Here are two examples of my Longines A-11. They appeared to be hand engraved but very consistent in fonts and spacings, based on a handful of examples I have seen. The engraving styles are also every similar between Longines Weems, non-Weems and LeCoultre.

and here´s mine again, so they are underneath one another for comparison. Thanks Lau Siew for the speedy reply, I´m very grateful, the fonts are identical.

quote:

specification no.94-27834

Here are a few snippets of information I found on another site;
Hi all,

i'm hoping someone here can tell me whether or not the only change from the original A-11 Spec: NO. 94-27834-A to NO.94-27834-B was the dial color from white to black ? The A spec from Nov. 2, 1942 was superseded by B on Feb. 22, 1943. All examples i've found of A have been white dial examples - all black dial examples i've found have been B. I'm not %100 sure that a black dial A was never produced, nor a white B ... my only evidence has been from examples i've seen online and the fact that the Spec for B clearly indicates the dial be BLACK in color (and hands white).

Any further evidence or possibly a copy / scan of the A spec would be greatly appreciated.

TIA and Best Regards from N.M.

Billy

I have 12 complete and incomplete a-11s in front of me.
The Elgin white dials have serial numbers beginning with 41 and 42 are spec no. 94-27834. The two piece Waltham and two piece Bulova af42s are also 94-27834.
Elgin two piece with af43 is also 94-27834.
Two Elgin two piece cases af44 are 94-27834 B and all af44 and af45 three piece cases (four) are 94-27834 B.

The a-11 was standardized in 1940, the 94-27834 A standard was issued in Nov of 1942.
Weems were issued under the a-11 standard are have spec no.27834 without the 94 prefix.
Could there be 27834 and 94-27834 standards in addition to the 94-27834 A and B?
Just speculating, but the original standard could have called for a watch that could be synchronized for navigation (Weems) another standard could have called for a second hand that could be stopped, and another could have called for black dials, etc. The difference between A and B could be performance standards.

Specification start with a base edition, eg Spec. No. 12345

The first revision (major change) is denoted with as 12345A, second revision, 12345B and so on.

Minor revisions, (such as correcting spellings or other things not affecting the configuration of the item) are handled through amendments.

There should three types of A-11 covered under 94-27834, those marked "94-27834, the base version, then versions with the "A" suffix and those with the "B" suffix.

November 1942 to February 1943 is a blink of an eye in the procurement world, only 120 days, there probably weren't many, if any, contracts let in such a short period.

The specifications are also not a true representation of the item configuration, th spec could be (and often is) modified by the wording of the contract.

All to be read here

To back it up, here from another forum, hard facts;
A-11 Specs.

Jim, at the beginning of this post you were looking for specs.

Here are the later ones 94-27834-B
(the ones you were refering to)


*A-11 navigation hack watch performance specifications

From US ARMY SPECIFICATION NO. 94-27834-B , dated FEBRUARY 22, 1943 - WATCH, NAVIGATION, TYPE A-11 (HACK):

F. METHOD OF INSPECTION AND TESTS:

F-5. Individual Tests.- Each watch shall be subject to the following tests:

F-5a. Room Temperature Rate Test - Horizontal Position. - The watch shall be fully wound and run for one day to allow it to settle down. The daily rate of the watch then shall be determined for a period of 3 consecutive days with the watch in a horizontal position with the dial up and with a daily winding. The average of the daily rates during the test period shall not exceed 30 seconds.

F-5b. Room Temperature Rate Test - Vertical Position. - The daily rate of the watch shall be determined for a period of 3 consecutive days with the watch in a vertical position, with the pendant down and with daily winding. The average of the daily rates during the test period shall not exceed 30 seconds. The difference between the average daily rate obtained in this test, and in the test specified in Paragraph F-5a, shall not exceed 45 seconds.

F-6. Routine Type Test. - The following tests, in addition to those specified in Paragraph F-5, shall be applied to not less than 5 watches selected at random from each hundred or fraction thereof that are contracted for.

F-6a. Plus 35 Degrees Centigrade (Plus 95 Degrees Fahrenheit) Temperature Rate Test - Pendant Down Position.- The watch shall be fully wound and then subjected to a temperature of plus 35 degrees Centigrade (plus 95 degrees Fahrenheit) for a period of 5 hours. During this period, the daily rate of the watch shall not differ more than 20 seconds from the average daily rate obtained in the test specified in Paragraph F-5b. (In order to arrive at the correct figure for the rate allowance for the temperature test, the error noted for the 5-hour period shall be multiplied by 4.8 in order to determine the rate for 24 hours).

F-6b. Zero Degrees Centigrade (Plus 32 Degrees Fahrenheit)- Temperature Rate Test - Pendant Down Position. - The watch shall be tested as descrived in Paragraph F-6a, except that the watch shall be at a temperature of zero degrees Centigrade (plus 32 degrees Fahrenheit). The daily rate of the watch shall not differ more than 40 seconds from the daily rate obtained in test specified in Paragraph F-5b.

F-6c. Waterproof Test. - The watch shall be suspended above a beaker of water placed in a vacum chamber which shall be evacuated to 5 1/2 inches of mercury (to simulate a condition of 72 inches of water), then the watch shall be immersed for a period of 15 seconds. There shall be no evidence of leakage of water into the watch during the test period. Leakage will appear as bubbles emanating from the back, crystal, or stem of the watch.

And here are some dates when the Mil Specs were changed (thanks to hg_sandman_ute);

I found a Belforte 11b 25 movement which is like the elgin hack watch does any one know any thing about these???? the Belforte is Benrus am I right?????

AAF correspondence relating to the Longines-Wittenauer Type A-11 watch, Contract No. W 535 AC 16036 (3796).

While recently researching Bulova military wristwatches supplied in accordance with MIL-W-3818A and MIL-W-6433A I noticed that another forum has been using the above out dated US mil wristwatch spec list. The revised list can be accessed here:

http://www.mwrforum.net/forums...ght=US+specification

+++++++++++++++

http://www.mybulova.com/watche...ssue-17a-2370?page=2

http://www.mwrforum.net/forums...ght=US+specification