Hi Folks

I am looking at purchasing an example of the above pocket watch. All the examples I have seen have on the case back a broad arrow plus a number. This version only has the broad arrow. The 9j movement was made in 1943 (serial number 31477484).

Is this a genuine example? Has it been re-cased and someone has made an attempt to authenticate it? Could it have been not cased until after WWII?

Are you sure there is no number above the broadarrow? In the middle photo I am seeing some very heavy wear to the back and the chrome plating seems to have worn through to the brass in some areas. I am also seeing faint numbers that appear to be 2358 and then perhaps some more but perhaps they are too worn to read or perhaps 2358 is all there was.

There are some tricks to try to read heavily worn numbers. These include:
1) Side lighting - in a dimly lit room, take a flashlight and shine it on the back from the side so that the light is just grazing the surface. This can show even the slightest impressions if you fiddle with the light and the angle you look at the back

2) Breathe heavily on the back like you are trying to fog up a window or like you are going to polish your eyeglasses then quickly look at the back. Adding this tiny bit of humidity to the metal and quickly looking before it evaporates can sometimes bring out impressions.

3) Photograph the back from different angles and with different lighting then look at the photos. Sometimes the camera can pick up things your eye does not.

4) Gently rub some flour on the back then even more gently take a rag and wipe it off with the lightest of touches so that you do not clean out the flour that is in the micro-scratches. Sometimes you will be able to see old worn numbers in this way.

Both case backs in the above image look correct to me.

Some of the Royal Navy Walthams appear to have been marked with a Broad Arrow but no issue number. All I could do is speculate as to why.

Some additional examples are shown in an older post on this forum:

Royal Navy Walthams

Best regards,
Greg

Hi Jim and Greg

Jim - I posted two different case backs for comparison. The one in the middle does indeed have a number whereas the bottom one doesn't. I will bear in mind for the future, your methods for viewing numbers.

Greg - Thanks for the link to a previous post and for the confirmation that some of these examples didn't have numbers.

Gordon

Hi Gordon, I have a couple pictures of my "war watch" showing the details that might help you with your dilemma. There is no doubt that;
A. It was a British issue as it has the "arrow", and a number 4 above it on the back.
B. The $ is well embossed, and the arrow is about worn off.
C. The case is original and the hands (on my watch) are the worse for wear than the ones you show in the picture, but thats old white paint. D. The movement is strange, 9 jewels with 3 positions adjusted.
E. Signed; "Waltham Premier 16s".

I expect that in the rush to get material out in 1942-43, if it was working, almost "anything goes" to support the war effort.

My own speculative mind places my example in a Canadian military unit (I bought it from a Canadian) assigned to some event in North Africa. Hmmmmm . . .

Less Xtal

Interesting seconds hand

Case Back (hard to photograph) with #4. Arrow won't register in Camera

9j, 3 Adj, "Waltham Premier 16s"

Hi Dave

Thanks for your reply.

I ended up buying the unnumbered pw in the photo.

According to the Waltham database there were 3 grades of this Model 1908:
grade 1609 - 9j,
grade 1617 - 17j,
grade 1621 - 21j.

However a number of supposedly 17j and 21j pws by serial number are in fact 9j.

Among the 9j, I have seen movements labelled just 16s and some Premier 16s. The 9j being just a basic 7j watch with 2 jewels added to the escape wheel.

All the examples of this pw I have seen are adjusted to 3 positions (pendant up, pendant to the left and to the right?) and to temperature.

They seemed to come up with odd jewel counts in WWII clocks and watches. My father has an Elgin aircraft clock, 22s, which has 8j.

I would say that your second hand is a replacement. The usual being broader.

Interesting theory on the origin of your pw.

The more worrying aspect of these watches is the Radium contained in the numbers. There is an interesting article in the elgin database about this very subject.

http://elginwatches.org/help/luminous_dials.html

To summarise the article, there is no need to panic but it is preferable to have as little contact with the dial as possible, i.e. leave the front bezel on unless it is absolutely necessary to take it off.

Gordon