I just had my 1875 George Blackie chronometer completely disassembled clean and reassembled.

The gentleman doing the lengthy cleaning process said that it looked like the chronometer had not been professionally serviced for many years; that the type of dried out lubrication (or something about the older maintenance, which he didn’t specify) reminded him of chronometers maintained by the military during WWII that he had serviced during and shortly after the war.

There are no visible markings or other indication that I can find that indicates that this chronometer was ever pressed into military service. However, I know that during both WWI and WWII there was (especially at the beginning) an acute shortage of chronometers available and a scramble occurred.

My question is: “Did the armed forces mark all chronometers they acquired and used or were some just tested and placed in service?”

Mason:

That's really a difficult question to answer with any authority as records concerning military items can often be a dilemma, wrapped in a conundrum, and rolled into a enigma.

My experience concerning WWII weaponry is extensive so I'll pass this on, for what it's worth.

Early in the war the U.S. was short of everything, and many issued items, such as shotguns and hunting type knives were 'off the shelf' items, so to speak. This was done before contracts were issued where the makers could put proper markings on these items.

I'll cite a few examples that I have owned relating to this.

Many hunting type knives issued to troops in the pacific came in civilian type sheaths with the original maker's names, but overstamped "U.S. Navy".

We used a lot of shotguns, both for combat roles and for training gunners how to lead targets on the ground or in the air. Many of these guns were made by Savage-Stevens as their Model 30, and were imprinted for sale by Sears and Montgomery Ward. We bought many of these 'off the shelf', with S-S, Sear & MW markings, but always had some type of U.S. acceptance mark added, usually on the stock and frame.

When S-S started to make contract shotguns for us the model was changed to 520-30 and had all the marking one would expect, i.e., acceptance, U.S. Property and proof marks.

There are many more examples that I can cite but what I am trying to say is that if an item was issued through the military it would always have some type of official mark of recognition. However, some troops did use their own civilian items, and of course these had no government marks.

A good example of that was the Randall made knives that were 'the knife to have' during the Vietnam fiasco, and soldiers could order them directly from the Randall company and have them shipped to them. Google Vietnam era Randall knives. Some of them that can be attributed or have a provenance bring big bucks.

I realize that all of the above does not answer your question to any great level of satisfaction, but it may explain a few things.

Marty

Thanks Marty,

Your examples were right on point. I carried a personal hunting knife through two Vietnam tours and bought several pairs fast drying jungle utilities (Marine Corps lingo for fatigues) and at least one pair of “jungle boots” on the black market, because (in 1963) the regular issue cotton and leather gear rotted quickly and the newer stuff was slow to arrive and hard to come by. We use to say that some of best dressed combat soldiers in Vietnam were the supply sergeants in Okinawa. :-)

In another example, there is a sunken luxury yacht off the coast of New Jersey called the Moonstone that was purchased by the Navy early in WWII and converted to a coastal patrol vessel. It has been scavenged pretty heavily, so I don’t know whether any nav gear on board was converted over to Government Issue or not.

Also, I think I read somewhere that, Earnest Hemingway, apparently outfitted his on patrol boat and spent some time (probably foolishly) on sub-patrol.

The expert who cleaned my old chronometer noted that the movement was very much like the Nardin design that Hamilton based their Model 21 on, so it was more than capable of being efficiently used; I am just wondering if anyone has any documented examples of non-contract models actually seeing service.

quote:

...... I am just wondering if anyone has any documented examples of non-contract models actually seeing service.

Mason:

I suppose that the only documentation you might ever get would be from private individuals who spoke about it, same as you spoke about the 'non-issued' G.I. purchases that you made or brought with you to VN. Unfortunately you may never find out.

Marty

There were older civilian chronometers used in WWI and WWII by the various military forces of the world. Some of these items were not marked at all. A few were marked with a slip of paper or a rubber ink stamp, all of which can be lost or rubbed off. But without some provenance, military use of any such chronometer is no more than speculation.

Time pieces, especially the more costly ones, were well marked by the various armed forces since they were small and easily snatched to sell on the black market. Markings kept this to a minimum since they could be traced by those such markings. While there could have been a few that escaped marking due to the exigencies of high need, I doubt there were many such given the equally strong need to control the loss of the ones they did have.

Without a marking, I agree with Greg that hoping it might be military based on a vague memory of a non-specific something about maintenance by watchmakers who happened to have served in the military for a few years of their career is not a very reliable basis for hoping against the strong evidence of lack of markings. Likewise, regular maintenance does not tell you much except that its previous owner took good care of it, or that it was owned by a company that kept it in good repair. Unless there is some solid provenance to overcome the lack of markings you should be proud to own a really nice civilian chronometer.

Hallo Mason, an answer may also be shown in my new thread, where the tables of the Naval Observatory show many chronometers supposed not to be marked as Gov. Property:
A famous German ship's chronometer for the US Navy: Louis Kurtz no 134
Greetings Konrad Knirim
www.knirim.de

Thanks all! I really have no preference, one way or the other, whether my 19th century chronometer saw any military service; however, being interested in the history of these devices, I was intrigued by the question. As usual, all the responses reflect an incredible depth of subject knowledge and personal experience. Konrad’s Observatory data is really interesting.

I found One semi-related piece of information on the subject of civilian chronometers being used on military vessels while doing some separate reading on the Civil War Confederate commerce raider CSS Alabama. Historical data indicates that between its initial voyage in August of 1862 and its eventual sinking in June of 1864, the crew of the Alabama intercepted and boarded about 450 vessels, sinking or burning 65. Interestingly, according to one document on the subject, one of the things Capt. Semmes always confiscated when he boarded a vessel was the ship’s Chronometer; such was their importance to the fledgling Confederate Navy-- hopefully being secretly built in English ship yards. One published source estimates that at one time Captain Semmes may have had as many as seventy chronometers (which he suposedly kept wound and running) on board the Alabama.

Thanks, Walter. That is a really interesting story about the Captain of the Alabama that I did not know before. I can just imagine walking into the captain's cabin and seeing all of those ships chronometers. I imagine they were a sort of trophy from each ship he boarded. I wonder whether any of his collection were sent off somewhere and survive. The ones on the Alabama have likely been reduced to corroded bits and pieces lying on the sea bottom outside of Cherbourg, France where the Alabama was attacked and finally sunk.

I've wondered the same thing about the possible boat load of chronometers that may have been on board the Alabama when it sunk. I'm checking some possible sources and will let you know what I find out.

Gents:

I assume that you are referring to the "C.S.S. Alabama" when mentioning the Alabama above.

I know, a very picky point, but we collect pocket watches, don't we?

Marty

What happend to the boat load of Marine Chronometers that were on board the CSS Alabama when she was sunk.

From contemporary accounts, estimates are that there were between 65 and 70 captured chronometers aboard the CSS Alabama before her fateful battle with the USS Kearsage in June of 1864. I found two different accounts of what happened to them.

One source says he [Captain Semmes] put seventy chronometers ashore in Cherbourg with a Confederate agent prior to steaming out to do battle. Arrangements were then later made with the Agent to have the chronometers shipped to a bank in England.

Another source says he transferred 65 chronometers from the Alabama to the English yacht Hornet under the command of a Captain Hewitt and “were eventually landed at Liverpool”.

Finally, in an article from an internet source called “When Liverpool was Dixie”, I found the following: “in 1867 or 68 Sinclair states that he was handed a sterling check by a member of a Baltimore banking house, as coming from Captain Semmes [CSS Alabama’s Captain] with the remark “Semmes desires me to pay this to you, as your share of the sale of the chronometers abroad and asks that you give him the address of Lieuts. Armstrong and Wilson”. The request was also made that the transaction be kept shady.”

So, the good news is, the chronometers were not scattered all over the sea bottom; the bad news is that their apparent sale and subsequent disbursal makes their whereabouts still unknown to history. Perhaps Captain Semmes, being the meticulous person that he was, kept a record of the names and serial numbers of the chronometers.

As noted by Konrad, various civilian chronometers were tested and used. If you can find record of your chronometer in US NAVAL OBSERVATORY records then you will have a great find.

Unfortunately, I do not know if US Naval Observatory testing records are available. It would be great if we could get them on-line. Then you could at least rule out the USN

In spite of the above, there were more civilian water craft than military. And there were also watchmakers who kept chronometers for watch timing. W/O provenance, such as Konrad has found, military use should not be assumed.