Hello All,

I have the chance to buy at auction in two days time what is described as a US Navy Mk1 Deck Clock No 4927. It is said to be dated 1940 and to have come from a US Navy Submarine sunk in the Mediterranean around 1942. A stand was later added to the clock.

From this brief description can anyone advise me if this sounds feasible and whether the clock is worth purchasing. The price guide is £200 - £300 sterling. Any comments, either for or against, would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Anthony

If you would like one of these clocks for your collection, I suspect you could get a much better deal for the clock alone.

The seller is expecting a primo price because of the submarine connection - judge for yourself if the history is accurate (why is the clock not rusted out?). And if you want to pay extra for the historical connection (if true). An accurate historical connection can add alot of value.

Best regards,
Greg

The problem is that so many sellers want to attribute military timepieces to romantic circumstances and that there are so many buyers who desire it to be true that they are willing not to look too closely to see whether a story is true.

For example, if every Navy clock that was claimed to have come from a submarine actually did come from a submarine, the oceans would have had so many subs in them they wouldn't have been able to move around without constantly bumping into each other. The same goes with aircraft clocks - people want every aircraft clock to have come from a P-51, a Spitfire, a B-17 bomber, a Japanese Zero or a ME-109 when most of them were just in ordinary aircraft such as transports and observation aircraft and trainers and less well known combat aircraft. This is understandable since famous or romantic uses of a military clocks adds interest and increase prices. The problem is the stories are rarely true. Such wishful thinking sometimes happens without a nefarious intent as things are passed along from one person to the next with each successive story being embellished. It is like that old party game of "telephone" where one person whispers a message into the ear of the next person and at the end of the line everyone laughs at how the final message is nothing like what was originally said.

There are a couple of telltales in the story you mention that should make you stop and ask yourself some questions. The first is that it came from a sub. This is an instant tip off that you really need to look more closely at the story and ask for some iron-clad provenance that proves this to be the case. Navy clocks were one size fits all instruments and they were used pretty much interchangably in all types of naval vessels. Yes a few were used on subs but the vast majority were used on everything from tug boats to transports to supply ships to less romantic combat vessels.

The second red flag is that it came from a sub that was sunk. How did they get the clock out of the sunken sub? There would have no reason to dive on a sub just to recover the clock - either back then or more recently. Sunken military vessels are considered to be gravesites.

The biggest red flag with accompanying fireworks an a siren going off is that it was recovered from a U.S. Navy sub that was sunk in the Mediterranean around 1942. A quick look at U.S. Navy vessel losses during WW II shows that there were 52 U.S. Navy subs that were sunk during the war and that none were lost in the Mediterranean.

If you are interested in the clock as an example of a generic U.S. Navy clock then you should decide whether you would like it on that basis. If you check on Ebay you will see a large number of these for sale every week and you can judge whether this particular one is a good deal compared to others based on which company manufactured it and what is its condition. Guidebooks are usually not terribly reliable indicators of values - actual recent auction sales of a number of comparable clocks is much more realistic and with the advent of Ebay this is a simple thing to look into these days, especially with relatively abundant items such as WW II U.S. Navy clocks.

In general U.S. Navy clocks from this period are very nice and if you find one you like in top condition at a fair price you should definitely think about acquiring one for your wall to use as a timekeeper or to add to your clock collection.

Jim is right,I was looking it up myself ,not one U.S. Sub lost even near the Med.


ALBACORE Japanese home waters November 1944
AMBERJACK Off New Britain February 1943
ARGONAUT Off New Britain 10 January 1943
BARBEL Off Borneo February 1945
BONEFISH Japanese home waters May 1945
BULLHEAD Java Sea August 1945
CAPELIN Celebes Sea December 1943
CISCO South Pacific Ocean October 1943
CORVINA Marshall Islands November 1943
DARTER Palawan Passage, P.I. 24 October 1944
DORADO Canal Zone, Panama October 1943
ESCOLAR Japanese home waters October 1944
FLIER Off Borneo August 1944
GOLET Japanese home waters June 1944
GRAMPUS Off New Britain February 1943
GRAYBACK Ryukyu Islands February 1944
GRAYLING Philippine waters August 1943
GRENADIER Malayan waters 21 April 1943
GROWLER Philippine waters November 1944
GRUNION Aleutian waters July 1942
GUDGEON Marianas Islands May 1944
HARDER Philippine waters August 1944
HERRING Kurile Islands May 1944
KETE Ryukyu Islands March 1945
LAGARTO South China Sea June 1945
PERCH Java Sea 3 March 1942
PICKEREL Japanese home waters May 1943
POMPANO Japanese home waters September 1943
R-12 Off Key West, Fla. 12 June 1943
ROBALO Off Borneo 26 July 1944
RUNNER Japanese home waters June 1943
S-26 Gulf of Panama 24 January 1942
S-27 Amchitka I., Aleutians 19 June 1942
S-28 Off Oahu, T. H. 4 July 1944
S-36 Straits of Makassar, N.E.I. 20 January 1942
S-39 Off Rossell I., SW Pacific 14 August 1942
S-44 Kurile Islands 7 October 1943
SCAMP Japanese home waters November 1944
SCORPION East China Sea January 1944
SCULPIN Gilbert Islands 19 November 1943
SEALION Cavite, P. I. 10 December 1941
SEAWOLF Off Morotai I., N.E.I. October 1944
SHARK (SS 174) Molucca Sea February 1942
SHARK (SS 314) Off Hong Kong, China October 1944
SNOOK Off Hainan I., S. China Sea April 1945
SWORDFISH Ryukyu Islands January 1945
TANG Formosa Strait 25 October 1944
TRIGGER Ryukyu Islands March 1945
TRITON Admiralty Islands March 1943
TROUT Ryukyu Islands February 1944
TULLIBEE Off Palau I. 26 March 1944
WAHOO Japanese home waters October 1943

Dear Greg, Jim and Anthony,

Many thanks for your very informative and helpful replies. In my original posting I deliberately only included the details taken from the auction catalogue, without adding any comments myself. This was because I already had the amber warning light glowing in my mind concerning the history and description attributed to this clock. Thanks to you it's now a case of 'Message Received And Understood' and the red light is full-on and flashing in my mind!

I will almost certainly still be going to the auction, as my wife has seen a painting she likes there. And the price of my being able to spend money on clocks usually also entails my hammering another nail into the wall to hang the 'new' picture that I've just bought her. In some ways it's a trade-off peace offering - but at least I also get a chance to sometimes buy a clock for myself that way. I will also be able to keep an eye on whether the Deck Clock sells or not - especially if it's offered without reserve.

Kind regards,

Anthony

I thought you might like to know that the clock sold for just over £240 which included the 15% Buyer's Premium. This equates to roughly $435 US.

Many thanks for the interest and information.

Anthony

Anthony,

This is good. If, as we suspect, you find one of these clocks for significantly less - you can buy it and not only enjoy the fine clock but also enjoy telling the wife that you obtained a great bargain.

Best regards,
Greg

Greg is right. For that amount you should be able to buy two of them and have a bit of change left over to take the Missus out for a night at the pub to keep the peace! Everybody wins, except for the poor sot who got stuck paying for that dodgy clock being flogged by the auctioneer.

In fairness to the auctioneer, I did make him aware of the information provided on the forum but without divulging the source. He told me the catalogue description had been supplied by the vendor but, to his credit, he did make a detailed announcement retracting all reference to US submarines and the Mediterranean before the clock came under the hammer. I can't help wondering how much more the clock might have made if the original description had been allowed to stand!

Regards,

Anthony

P.S. You guessed it - when we got home I had to knock ANOTHER nail in the wall!