A steady stream of ORD OH designated wristwatches have appeared for sale on such places as eBay over the past couple of years. Photos of two recent sales of Helvetia ORD OH watches are provided below.

It has been speculated that the OH designated was introduced after WWII (and therefore does not appear in TM 9-1575 which was created in April 1945). All wristwatches that I have seen with the ORD OH designation appear to be non-US manufactured timepieces (e.g. Helvetia, Tissot), and lends support to the assertion that the watches were sourced locally in Europe by the US Army during its occupation of Germany post WWII.

I would welcome the views of other military watch collectors on the legitimacy of the US Army ORD OH watches.



regards, Ken

Whitney does not include these in his book. Of course it is possible that he overlooked them, but their not being there makes me think that they are not right. The three other aspects that make me wonder are 1) that you say these are coming out of Europe rather than out of the the US where the soldiers would have taken them after the war; then 2) Europe is one of the main places where military timepiece forgeries are being made and sold into the market, especially via Ebay; and 3) the military markings look kind of shakey and not well done when military markings on timepieces that are known to be authentic are usually done with substantial precision. These may be okay, but for the above reasons I would expect that there would need to be some pretty solid evidence such as a copy of the military contract or such before I would be comfortable believing these are what they are trying to be.

Thanks Jim for the response.

I agree that there is doubt about the ORD OH watches, as currently there is no documentary evidence to support the suggestion that the US occupying forces in Europe after WWII sourced Swiss produced watches e.g. (Helvetia, Tissot) and stamped such watches with ORD OH and a serial number. But the fact remains that these watches keep surfacing, and to my eye, they do not appear to be stamped in order to mislead.

With regard to Whitney’s Military Timepieces, it’s a very useful resource but there are gaps, particularly on wristwatches. For example, Whitney does not include the US 1986 Altus (Glycine) NSN 6645 00 066 4279 nor the US Army 2179 Omega wristwatch in his book. A lot of information on military timepieces has surfaced since the book was published nearly 20 years ago. I’m looking forward to Mr Delgado’s publishing his book on US military timepieces, which no doubt will be very comprehensive in its coverage.

The two ORD OH watches I used as examples were actually sold on eBay by US sellers. Regarding the crude markings, I suspect that unlike military watches produced in the US under contract which required the manufacturer to engrave the casebacks, the ORD OH were most likely stamped by the US Army. Also, crudity of markings isn’t always an indication of the legitimacy of a military watch, have you seen the markings on a RAF Bulova A-11 6B/234?

In a nutshell, I’m leaning towards the ORD OH watches being legitimate US Army issued watches, but acknowledge I could be proven wrong.

Regards, Ken

Another ORD OH recently sold on eBay (seller based in Texas).

BTW, I have also seen an Helvetia with both a German DH and US Army markings (supposedly confiscated from the German military and re-issued by the US Army).

Watches with ORD OH markings are pictured in Konrad Knirim's book of German military timepieces. The examples in Konrad's book are all former D...H watches.

Since watches with these markings were known before the great flood of military watch fakes, then we can assume that ORD OH watches are most likely genuine. Unless, of course, a fake-maker is producing fakes. For this the collector must be on guard.

Hi Greg. I hear what you are saying and Konrad is exceptionally well informed, but my common sense leads me to ask that if these were issued by the Deutsches Heer, then why are they marked with U.S. Army Ordinance Department markings and not the normal Wehrmacht D H marking? Am I missing something?

Another variety to add to the mix - this time a Felca.

Jim,

I suspect that most of the Ord OH watches we are seeing now are fakes.

To be acceptable as a ORD OH I would first examine the watch to see if it fits all of the known criteria to be a genuine DH watch. If it's a genuine DH watch I would then look at the ORD OH markings.

The fake-maker is only in the game for the money. The expense of defacing a valuable DH to make a less valuable ORD OH is not viable.

Most of the ORD OH watches I have seen recently look highly suspect and I would not bid on them.

There may be two types of ORD OH watches:

1. German military DH watches reassigned by the US Army

2. European (generally Swiss) civilian watches purchased directly from the manufacturers by the US Army occupying Europe 1945 onwards.

There is precedence for the second scenario of the US Army urgently requiring wristwatches in Europe. The US Army ordered Omega wristwatches on 31 January 1945 (there were 10,000 CK 2179 watches ordered).

Perhaps one of our German military watch collectors could comment on the first scenario?

This Bulova “US Zone Germany” was, according to the seller, part of the estate of a WWII US veteran.

Hi Ken,
watches, amongst other things, made shortly after the war were indeed stamped US Zone from 1945-1949 if they were produced or sold there, but this had nothing to do with a military provenance, it simply was a sign, as Germany was divided between the occupying powers, whether made in the American, Russian, French or British zone. Here an example of the famous Steiff Toys, they had to have a white label with US Zone on them;
Steiff Toys

Office of Military Government (U.S. Zone)
Office of Military Government US-Zone, OMGUS

OAC

1945-49

Allied Occupation: American Occupation Zone
Photo: Headquarters of the American military administration in Germany, 1945
Daily Life: Cigarette with illustration of the U.S. occupation zone in 1946
Brochure: codes of conduct for U.S. soldiers, 1945

The American occupation zone comprises parts of southern and central Germany and the enclave of Bremen and Bremerhaven. It is with 116,000 sq km slightly smaller than the Soviet occupation zone . 1945 16.7 million people living in the occupied zone of the United States. The headquarters of the American military government (Office of Military Government, U.S. Zone, OMGUS) is located in the former IG Farben building in Frankfurt am Main. General Dwight D. Eisenhower in November 1945 by General Joseph T. McNarney replaced as commander of the U.S. zone, the in January 1947, General Lucius D. Clay follows.

Because the Americans employ staff in their own little area, they attract more German authorities , the phased approach to build from the bottom up, to participate. As early as 19 September 1945 by the U.S. military administration, the countries established in Bavaria, Hesse and large-Württemberg-Baden. The Prime Minister will be appointed by the OMGUS: For Karl Geiler Hesse (1878-1953) and for Wuerttemberg-Baden, the former member of parliament Reinhold Maier (1889-1971). Already in May 1945 appointed interim prime minister of Bavaria, Fritz Schäffer (1888-1967), Bavarian Finance Minister until 1933, is replaced in September 1945 by William Hoegner (1887-1980).

Foundation of American occupation policy, the JCS 1067 is dated April 1945. After that Germany should be treated as a defeated enemy nation. Any "fraternization" that is, fraternization with the German population is to be prevented. Although this directive will remain until July 1947, its provisions are less and less attention. (Ag)

(Ag) © Stiftung Haus der Geschichte of the Federal Republic of Germany
Allied Occupation

I also collect Porcelain Figurines (amongst other things)and here is a porcelean figurine made by the famous company Rosenthal with the said "US Zone" stamp on the base, dating this piece to 1945-1947. She definately has no military provenance!



Regards

Thanks Jimmy for clarifying the situation regarding "Germany US Zone" products.

The Rosenthal porcelain figurine is a wonderful piece.

All the best, Ken

I'd like to bring back an old post:
I have seen a Universal Geneve and a Tissot stamped US Army ORD NO-OH plus different numbers on the back.
I would like to add one to my WWII collection
Does anyone have an answer as to whether these are US Army issued watches and whether they were WWII or Post war?
I have been told by a military collector that these watches were from WWII.
Any help would be appreciated, thanks

I don't know if anyone has done the research necessary to answer your question as to when the US issued these watches.

My best guess is that the watches were issued post war, maybe around the time of the Korean War. The US Govt sold off so much stuff after WWII that our military faced many shortages of equipment when the Korean War started. A surplus dealer would have been in a good position to sell the DH watches to the US Military at that time. Anyway, that's my guess until someone comes up with some solid research.

Thanks for the reply, Greg
Just to be clear the Universal Geneve and Tissot that I saw were not DH watches, at least I did not see any DH markings on them.
A military collector/dealer who owns one of these says it is a rare WWII watch and he is selling it as such
Any other opinions?
Thanks again for the help

My guess (I do not know for sure) would be along the lines of what Greg is suggesting. Unless someone here comes along with sure knowledge, I would not place any confidence in what some unknown military watch collector may have told this dealer who of course is seeking the highest prices he can get for his wares. The folks here are the most knowledgable I have ever come into contact with regarding military timepieces.

Thanks for the information-this thread has been very informative for me