Greetings,

I thought it would be interesting to solicit your views about dials and redials. Redials meaning restored dials. Redials meaning refinished dials. Redials meaning anything other than totally original dials.

If you live in the greater Cincinnati area, it is worth a visit to International Dial in Wilmington Ohio. Rob Miller and his company refinishes 100 to 150 dials a day in a space that is a wonder to behold.

Rob recently refinished a Hamilton "Rectangular dial" for me. Photo is attached. What follows is two other photo's of a rectangular dial. The first is the refinished dial, prior to refinishing. The second is a Rectangular dial with an old refinish. We know it was refinished due to the refinisher mark on the back of the dial.

Obviously, I would prefer totally original. When does one refinish?

(note, the hands on this watch are different than the hands in the following picture. The ad suggested that these are the correct hands).

This is the same dial, prior to recent refinishing. It is not original, but was refinished sometime in the past, evidently done without the luminous material in the numbers.

This is another (different) example of the Hamilton rectangular with an old refinish. It is not original, but has the two tone quality that is described in the early ads for this watch. The hands are not original.

so the second image is an original dial, but no luminous filling in the numerals?

For me I like to leave them original if possible. Having said that in many cases you just don't have a choice. I have learned some great cleaning tricks over the years but you just can't replace paint. I don't redo unless I have to.
Wristwatches and their dials a subject to more moisture than pocket watches and that realy kills dials

Duh.. (note to self ... reading comprehension... )


I would say an excellent job on the top one... and because you found out the dial had been refinished before anyway, no problem IMHO...

International dial does a great job, to a point. This was the company I mentioned in a separate post (ancestrial timepieces) that lost my Dad's Lipton dial, and after finally finding it, left off the red 24 hour marks, as it was a military dial off a stainless steel oyster case, and used while he was in the Navy during WW2, all the way up to 1985. I should have had it returned, but I didn't want to risk them REALLY losing it again. So, if you're not to concerned about a dial getting lost in the process, their work is outstanding. Wish I had still had them complete the job, but the watch is still functional with the standard face. Ah well. Regards, Mark

Ouch! That hurts. Have you met the team at a watch show? This is off-topic, but I find Rob Miller and the dedicated staff at International Dial to be a really fine group of people who are dedicated to their art.

Mark, if you are so inclined, I would respectfully encourage you to contact Rob directly. Tell him about your experience, and consider the opportunity to let ID make this right.

Regards, William

Thank you for that suggestion, Dr. Hansen. No, I've never been able to catch a show to date, so I've never met the folks. How would I get in touch with Rob? This took place about 3-4 years ago. Regards. Mark

...in my opinion, if they can employ artisans to bring the Sistine Chapel ceiling back to original quality then the work of contemporary dial restorers should be acknowledged and accepted if their efforts are dedicated towards replicating the originals...

"Obviously, I would prefer totally original..."

..."When does one refinish?"

I agree with the above statement..who would not ? ..For me when to refinish?

I think I would only have a dial refinished if I knew it was going to be a part of my personal,never going to sell collection and even then the dial would really have to bother me for me to have it refinished.

If I thought I might sell it,I would leave the decision of refinishing to the next collector and I would keep it as I purchased it.I would clean the dial,but otherwise keep it in its original state.

Does refinishing the original dial carry more stigma than the dial and case swapping that goes on with pocket watches?

Apparently not, John, or at least not in any readings I've done in all the watch pages around. In my case, my Dad's Lipton dial was almost unreadable, except under direct lighting conditions. Practically useless in actually 'field use', if you follow my meaning, and it was not able to be cleaned up to useable condition. Considering it had been through a world war, and was in daily use from 1943 through 1985, no wonder! Regards. Mark

John,

I don't think so really(stigma).I have no problem with refinished dials,but I have a tendency of leaving everything as original or stock as possible.

Personal preference only.

I appreciate the participation in this discussion. Jim's thoughts about the Sistine are particularly enlightening.

I too prefer an original dial. Often a redial on a vintage watch makes me think of my 89 year old grandmother with a face lift. Here too, there is beauty in the original.

However, at some point in time, many dials cross the line from "vintage", "attractive", and valued adding, to distracting. At that point, I consider a redial.

William just my thoughts on the subject.I am like Stephen R, as if i keep it in my collection i probaly would not refinish the dial.Though if i were to sell it i probaly would get the dial refinished if it was in bad shape, not readable and , or, paint comming off.
My Elgin chrono i wear sometimes the dial is not perfect but most people tell me the watch looks mint.I am probaly more fussier about these things than some people are.
Mark sorry to hear of the bad experience with your father,s service watch.

Thanks Kevin. Things happen. Regards. Mark

With the Sistine Chapel, many art historians were enraged by the decision to "restore" it. It's not possible to restore anything, even a watch dial, to what it was, only to make whatever's left look as good as it can, or to make it as good an imitation of whatever can be perceived of the original.

Any solvent, no matter how chemically well-formulated, will change the surface. Any dye or paint, or bonding material will change the surface; and in the case of Michelangelo, he painted so far paintings, that no on really knows what his choices would have been, except for the hints that are left.

What's so interesting, though, is that the improvement of the final wall silence objectors. Maybe they still have doubts, but don't feel in the current climate they can voice them; not to mention what people in the future will think. When a thing becomes so degraded that it has lost all meaning, or no longer carries a sufficient part of what it was like as an original, it becomes more justifiable to restore or beautify it.

I wonder if someday people who love the " new" and find any even small flaws pointless and alienating--or who love flaws and use various methods to make new things look old or used--will look back and find our arguments and positions funny.

Jessica

We redo TONS of dials...at one time we used International, but like Rob, had spotty results. (at one time they were *THE* place to redo watch dials.

Sometimes they came back just AWESOME, hardly could tell them from originaland sometimes we got back one of those spray paint jobs with sloppy work.

Then we went for many years to a fellow in Sarasota, who did AWESOME and consistant work. We were his number one customer for many years. Then he retired and the work went downhill.

To be fair to Rob and crew, (we have four watchmakers and take in trade work so we understand this) one cannot look over the shoulder of EACH of your technicians at ALL times. We are currently using a company in California and again, they are good but not ALWAYS good.

Will be sure to try Rob and crew again soon...
Perhaps things have changed...

As to when to redo a dial...it is pretty simple..if mildy spotted or midly rough around the edges, leave an original dial original. But if the dial was redone poorly before or is just plain ugly, redo it.

One mans opinion..
Jeff Hess

I have been looking for this subject for awhile. I know the rules on value, so won't discuss price.
However, here is my situation. First of all I have just really got into collecting watches. One of the first watches I bought was a Tisot Seastar 7 vice nice watch and complete.

When the gentleman sent me the pictures, it looked like a gold dial or a bad picture taken under incadesent light (sort of a gold tone).
However, when I got it, the face was in fact discolored.
I have found some great people in syracuse, NY who are more picky than I am (If thats possible)

They took the watch apart and sent the dial to either Kirk or ID, I can't remember.

However, when it came back to them, THEY WERE REALLY UNHAPPY, with the quality of the job.
So, they sent the dial to Eagle Dial in Phila, a little more expensive but suppose to be a good house and they (Syracuse are picking up the cost because they want the job done correctly)

Now, to the heart of the matter.
I have just picked up a Longines with a 990 auto movement in it.The watch is complete except the dial really needs to be refinished to make the piece perfect. I am wondering if dial refinishing really lowers the value of the piece.

I also have the 17J swiss manual wind Waltham my grandmother gave me for HS graduation.
The dial is showing just some tiny bile marks, I of course would vever sell it, but I am arguing with myself on getting the dial refinished on this one.

What are evrybodys thoughts.

Jim,

I just noticed that you wrote: "I know the rules on value, so won't discuss price." Unlike the main NAWCC board (the 'Green' Board) we don't have rules like that here.