folks: I have a lead on a chronograph, but the seller is playing a little bit coy with me and wants some info on it before he sets a price, or sends it to me. He just wants to establish whether it's a rare piece or not and what kind of price range he can expect. I don't have a photo of it, so can only describe it. It's round, flat pushers. Printed on the dial is SCHWOB, which I assume is Schwob Freres & Co. The chronograph dials (30 minute register and constant seconds) are up and down at 12:00 and 6:00, rather than at 3:00 and 9:00. Now, here's the interesting part: when you open the back, it's not immediately apparent that this is a chronograph movement. All the "guts" relevent to the chronograph (springs, clicks, reset levers, gears, etc.) are on the OTHER side of the watch, underneath the dial! Has anyone ever heard of this being done? The case and movement are both signed LEONIDAS, but LEONIDAS did not make their own chronograph movements as far as I know. I thought this movement might be a Pierce 134, or a Venus 170, or a Valj. 77, all of which were "up-and-downs." But all of these movements had their chronograph parts "face up" when you open the back of the watch. Is this a rare bird? Should I be offering the guy $300 for this? Or a thousand? I just don't know! Any insights would be helpful. Wish I had an image, but the seller just isn't digitally savvy. I'll be looking at the Gerd Lang chronograph book tonight to see if I can find anything, but if this sets off a lightbulb with anyone, I'd appreciate hearing from you. Thanks.

Bruce, I do not have much knowledge on chronographs specifically, but I highly recommend that you convince the seller to get assistance in obtaining some images for you. Otherwise, there is a high likelyhood for a potentially disappointing experiance for want of technical charactoristics. For multi-complications, a picture tells a thousand words.

OK, I've had my nose in the Gerd Lang book for a while, and learned that LEONIDAS did make a couple of chronograph movements, the caliber 196 and the caliber 45, so I stand correct on this. (Although they must have had a very short production run because neither of these movements shows up in the Bestfit book, at the least the reproduction of the '65 book that I have.) Nothing shows in the Lang book with Schwob on the dial. A couple of chrongraphs movements look like "normal" watches from the movement side, such as the Oris 725. But nothing is really making sense here. Guess I'll just have to get this watch in hand somehow for a closer inspection.

I believe the Hamilton Autochron is one that put the chrono works under the dial too.
Schwob always seemed like pretty standard fair to me.
-Cort
p.s.-definitely not Pierce. Those are one of my favorites and have odd movements too but, that's a topic for another day.

It is a little bit odd when a seller wants the prospective buyer to help him establish a price !

The danger here is that if you tell him anything it will result in a higher selling price.

DM

I haven't seen the watch. I am just repeating what the seller told me over the phone. He's an old friend, in fact he's the one who got me started watch collecting. So I'm not worried that he's trying to put something over on me. He's in his early 70s and the whole computer generation just sort of passed him by. I'll get my hands on the watch just to take photos of it, and will post them. No sense getting any more worked up about this. As everyone is saying, there's just no substitute for seeing the watch.

I have finally had an opportunity to photograph this interesting watch. It's almost like a "reverse chronograph" in that the constant time is seen on the small register at the top of the watch. The large center sweep seconds is the chronograph seconds (there is no constant seconds on this watch). The small register at the bottom tracks chronograph time to 30 minutes. As you can see in the next photo down, the plate side of the movement (i.e., the side of the movement you see when you remove the back) reveals little of the intricate mechanisms required for the chrongraph section of the watch. This must all be hidden under the dial on the dial side of the movement. I am hesitant to remove the dial because I am not a watchmaker, and I only have this watch on loan. The owner has not decided whether he wants to sell it or not. Anyway, any opinions would be welcome as to what the true identity/caliber of this movement is. As you can see, it is marked Schwob on the dial, but Leonidas on the inside case back and the movement. Very interesting pieces. Also, as you can see, it has male lugs which you don't see very often.

second image of the inside case back.

sorry, second image is of the movement. Here is the inside caseback:

Very cool watch! I've seen Gallets with the same hand configuration but the dial takes this one in a really unusual direction. Really unusual, neat and wierd. I like it!
-Cort
P.s.- on second thought, I'm semi-sure the Gallet had a minute recording sub-dial. I don't think it has the same mv't as yours. That's a pretty unusual watch you found.

Bad case of corrosion - why does stainless steel do this ?

DM

This is a Venus 140 movement.It is shown in the Paulson "Master Key" book.
There was a Schwob Watch Co. at 22 West 48th St in NYC in 1950
J Smith

Continuing this discussion, thank you Julian for the movement ID. I found the movement in question listed in my Official Catalog of Swiss Watch Parts (2 volumes. I am not familiar with the Paulson book. As you can see below, the dial side of the movement hides all the intricate chronograph parts. This is indeed unusual, the only chronograph movement (that I was able to find in the Swiss ID book) that uses this configuration.

I was able to find the Gallet model in one of my Becken books, this image from their 1941 catalog. It sold for $53.20 new. So in addition to Gallet making this model, Leonidas obviously produced this model (their name is on the Schwob watch). And I’m guessing Schwob liked the design and made an agreement with Leonidas to produce a model with the with Schwob name on it.

Dan, I can address the stainless steel case question to some extent. I'm not an expert by any means in metallurgy, but basically the answer is that all stainless steel is not created equal. Depending on the blend of the various metals involved, it can be very durable or not so durable. I think modern stainless steel is probably pretty consistent, but back in the '30s, '40s, and even '50s there was a wide discrepancy in quality.

The case will surely take a lot of work to restore - if you do buy it do show us a picture of the finished watch.

Dan.

Bruce, Dan,

I believe that the case is a base metal center with brushed chrome plating (and a polished chrome bezel ring), and that only the back is Stainless Steel...note that the English text says "stainless steel back". This was very common during the 1930s and 1940s.

Some of what appears to be corrosion will likely clean off, and the brassing on the lug tips could be covered (although I wouldn't do it) with Rhodium, and then re-brushed. I think that once the worn pushers are replaced, and the case cleaned and detailed, it will look substantially better.

My two cents,

Cary