Value is what it means to the person. I have been reading posts and seems like Gruen watches aren't big in topics. See a lot of Hamilton/Illinois watches. I like the tank style or 1945 and ealrlier watches. So I am curious on the collectable value of Gruen watches. Advice/opinions appreciated, thanks.

Mark,
as a follow on to others' remarks about Gruen watches. Gruen made a large number of wristwatches, some are a lot more collectible than others. As a general rule of thumb, the more unique the model is, the higher the collectability value. Longer Curvexes with 500 or 330 movements typically command higher prices.

Mark,

Welcome to Chapter 185.

As a Gruen specialist, I have some opinions on your question. It's always surprised me that (with a few exceptions) Gruens have been ignored or looked down on as collectible watches. I think there are some logical and understandable reasons though, and I'm not offended by others opinions.

First, let me say that though I really like the Gruens and would love to see them receive their due in the collectors world, I understand some of the things that keep that from happening. I know that, even though they were upper end in price among domestic producers, they have not proven to be the best quality over time. I love the Curvexes (311, 330, 440 and 370), but technically, they have some problems that are far too common to be due to individual examples of abuse. How many of us have had a Curvex with the "snap, crackle and pop" in the winding mechanism? Tight tolerances, delicate hairsprings and soft plates are some of the comments I've heard from various seasoned watchmakers (and can echo from my own experiences). If I were to name the best mass-market wristwatch movement from the era, it would be the Hamilton 982M, hands down. And compare the way that Gruen cases have held up over the years. While later ones are pretty good, a 311 or 330 Curvex gold-filled case will almost always show more severe wear at the seams, the lug tips, and any joints, than will similar models from Hamilton, Elgin, or even Bulova.

In spite of all of this, I still love the Gruens. In men's true Curvex watches alone, there were over 150 distinct models produced between 1935 and 1954. Add to that hundreds of Veri-Thins, plus complications (their in-house cal 450 chronograph, true duo-dials (877 and 500dd), triple dates (415CA), alarms (910ss), wind indicators, jump hours and so on), the early Tank, Cartouche, Baguette and Quadron watches... There's a lot to love about Gruen. So why are they not top-tier to many collectors?

First, I believe there is a carryover in wristwatch collecting from pocket watch collecting. The fact that Gruen typically uses imported Swiss movements drops them a notch in the estimation of collectors who prize "American" watches, designed, built, cased and sold in the USA. Gruen pocketwatches, again generally, are not looked upon too highly, with the obvious exception of the 50th Anniversary model, and some of the complications marketed under the Dietrich Gruen name. I consider Gruen (along with Bulova and Benrus) to be "American", because they were based here, but understand the rationale used by the many that don't consider them to be an American producer.

Second, thanks to the diligent work of great collectors like Rene Rondeau, Fred Friedberg and many, many others, and also thanks to the lucky happenstance that the factory records survived, a collector with a Hamilton or Illinois wristwatch has many resources to check for dates, production numbers, different case metals, correct specifications and so on. Similar information is available to those who care to dig, for most of the major Swiss makers, including Omega, Longines, Rolex, LeCoultre and others.

Unfortunately, Gruen was one of the first American corporations to fall victim to the now common practice of "divestment". After a scandal ridden ownership change in 1954 and the failure of the Cincinnati based incarnation of the company in 1958, there are at least three different corporate owners of Gruen Industries, which made many different things, and the watches became a less and less important part of the picture. By the late sixties, and into the seventies, Gruen Industries was hardly a watch manufacturer anymore, shopping their Swiss movements around to be to be cased and shipped from wherever it was most efficient. I have late Gruens cased in France, West Germany, Canada and Hong Kong. Hardly a history that inspires loyalty, and lingering warm feelings. Worst of all, the meticulous production records kept at Time Hill were eventually dumped, after years of storage, into the Cincinnati landfill. Those records that did survive (and I know that there are some) have not been made generally available, so there is no reliable source for documentation open to collectors. This makes the indentification and authentication of Gruen watches very difficult and leads to often unresolvable arguments over "Is this a Curvex?" or "Is that a correct dial?" and so on. I can't tell you how many times I've had someone tell me things like "Oh, they used Veri-Thin movements in Curvex watches, they just didn't put "Precision" on the dial." or "All true Curvexes say Curvex on the ratchet wheel." Both statements are wrong, but demonstrating it to someone elses satisfaction (especially if they've spent a fair price for an incorrect watch) is very difficult. There's a lot of hearsay in the world of Gruen.

In addition, Gruen wasn't very considerate of the future collector. Of course, they didn't know it, but a lot of their marketing and production decisions have clouded issues for us down the road. Like Hamilton and Illinois, Gruen named most of their wristwatches, at least after the late 1920s. How many Hamilton or Illinois collectors have you met who maintain a checklist of the models they need to complete their collection? The same thing should be true of Gruen, but (complicated by the loss of the factory records) it's very difficult to do because of a couple of bad habits. Gruen was shrewd at marketing, and was very quick to follow trends, and to abandon them if they didn't pan out. Lots of models appear for just a year or two, while others last decades. This becomes a problem because they tended to re-use model names. Want a Curvex "Captain"? Well, you better bring a picture, because there were at least three different "Captains" using two different movements. Or the Curvex "Sentry," "Century," "Centennial," or "Lieutenant," which are all different names for the same 440 Curvex watch, produced and sold over an eight year period. But there was a different "Lieutenant" using the 330 movement. A Curvex "Governor" became a Curvex "Diplomat" if it was sold with a metal bracelet instead of a leather strap. Or maybe you want a "Camargo", but is that a "Curvex Camargo" or a "Veri-Thin Camargo", because they are completely different designs. How about the famous "Curvex Majesty"? Everyone knows that's the longest (52mm)330 model from 1938. That's true, unless it's the solid gold 47mm 370 model from 1950.

The complication created by the cavalier way Gruen used and re-used names has made it all but impossible to use those model names to easily identify different Gruens in the way that Hamilton and Illinois collectors do every day.

Finally, the issue is further complicated by the easy interchangeability of parts, movements and dials, beginning with the relationship between the non-curvex 500 and the true Curvex 311, and really becoming an issue with the Curvex 440 and the Veri-Thin 430. Apart from the plates, every mechanical part on a 430 can interchange with
the 440. I've gotten 430 movements with Curvex marked ratchet wheels, and 440 movements with Veri-Thin marked ones. The 335 Veri-Thin shares most of it's train parts with the 440, and there is some interchangeability between both of these and the Curvex 370. It makes fertile ground for fraud, as well as a lot of misunderstanding caused by well meaning watchmakers over the last fifty years doing what they needed to keep a watch running.

I apologize for posting such a long, rambling response, but I think it's easy to understand the reasons for the position Gruen holds if you understand the complication that their history presents to the normal collector. I guess that makes me abnormal, eh?

Anyway, love them or not, I see the values rising, and welcome the renewed interest and drive towards authenticating the marque for future generations.

Regards,

Cary

Cary,
all I can say is WOW !!!!

Welcome to the IHC 185, it's great to have another very knowlegeable resource added to the ever growing team.

Cary: thanks for the great post. I myself am partial to the Gruen quadrons of the 1920s. Gruen was one of the first, if not THE first, to use a "formed" movement rather than a round which allowed for a more streamlined case design. The cases on these are lovely, often white gold filled with decorative engraving. They are quite hard to find, and pricey when someone who has one KNOWS what he has. I have delighted several times in scoring a bargain on a quadron from someone who thought they just had a garden-variety rectangular Gruen. My question to Cary (or anyone) is which grades or calibers of Gruen movements are considered quadrons? Thanks very much. Next week, I'll pull a couple out of the old safety deposit box and post some photos. To answer Mark's initial post about the "worthiness" of Gruen watches, I consider them very fine watches, thought they are not as eagerly sought as other brands. Everybody claws and scratches for the Curvexes, but there are some many other fine models, incuding the doctors' watches (techniquadrons), Pan Am dial series and of course the quadrons which I already mentioned. Good luck and have fun.

Hi Bruce,

I like the Quadrons as well, and have been recently wearing a solid 14K white one, with the 117 movement. Not as much study has been done on the Quadrons as on the Curvexes, at least by the people I know, but as always I'm willing to toss out an opinion.

The first Gruen movement advertised as "Quadron" is the 117, introduced in 1925. It's a barrel shaped, four sided movement (hence Quad-ron ) measuring 8 3/4 by 12 lignes. It's followed by the 119 and 123 caliber movements, all showing minor changes in the mainspring barrel and the complex, four piece click design. Contemporary to these (which are all Precision grade 17 jewel movements) is the 157 caliber, a 15 jewel movement of completely different (and less complicated) design, used in the less expensive Quadron watches of the late 20s and early 30s. 157 is the most frequently seen caliber today. Later comes the 325 caliber, and it's 21 jewel variant, the 3251, similar in design to the original 117 series.

Then there is the 485 and 487 series, which were not Precision grade, with 7 and 15 jewels repectively. Finally, there is the 679-680-681-682 series, made in both 7 and 17 jewels. My observation leads me to believe that these later versions were lower cost movements used to fill the gaps left after the cessation of the 117 through 325 versions. They are rarely seen, and I don't think many were made. Some that I have seen have had presentation engravings as late as 1940, so I think they were on the market later than the others, possibly just to use the existing case dies left over from the original Quadrons. Like everyone else, Gruen did lots of cost cutting during the depression.

It should be noted that in technical correspondence, at least through 1938, Gruen referred to all of their four sided movements as "Quadron" including the 500, 311, 355 and 330 movements. They apparently reserved the word QUADRON in marketing campaigns for the 117, 119, 123, 157 and 325 movements, and the watches that held them. I've not seen the 485 or 679 movements called Quadron in their advertising.

I have some more technical data on these, if you're interested.

Cary

Cary,
thank you for taking the time and effort to post such an interesting and informative history of Gruen and its place in today'smarket. They did make some very beautiful watches.

Can't wait for the pictures.

Gary, as always, great post. Thanks for the replies.Wouldn't value be as far as how many of these watches are out there. Any idea on production of Gruens from the 40's and before cpmapred to Hamilton,Illinois, and others. Too bad someone can't come up with a book to document the watches, stlyes, and makes. If there was one out there I would think more people would collect. They would have something to look at and compare. There was one site that seemed to put Gruens out there for collectors. It started me. One day!

Mark,

Generally, one would think that rarity directly relates to value, but that's not always the case. Illinois wristwatches are by far the most rare of the makers you mention, due to their relatively short production life, but a plain Illinois is no more expensive than a nice, similar Hamilton. It's the rare and unusual ones that go sky high.

Early Hamilton's are quite rare, but by the late thirties, through to the fifties, they appear to have been very widespread, and even common models (Brock, Donald, Boulton, etc.) bring prices usually double what a comparable but more rare, Gruen will bring.

I would think, and I may well be wrong, that the most common of the mass market wristwatches in this 1925 to 1955 (roughly) market would be Elgin, followed by Bulova, Waltham, Gruen, Hamilton and Illinois, in that order. Dueber Hampden would be very low for the same reason earlier offered for Illinois. Early on, Gruen and Waltham produced more than Bulova, but after World War Two, that trend seems to reverse.

Pure Swiss watches are quite uncommon prior to the war, both due to market prejudice (a Swiss watch used to be a cheap import) and restrictive import duties. That's why my early Omega and Longines watches have signed cases made by Wadsworth, with a "Cased and timed in USA" notation.

We must also remember that untold numbers of watches were destroyed in the late 1970s, to scrap their solid gold cases. Though some of this was done during the hard times of the 1930s, there was a huge rush to clear out dresser drawers and dump watches when scrap value was four or five times (or more) collectible value. Even gold-filled watches were melted to recover the relatively small amount of gold. I have boxes of movements that came from jewelers or pawnshops who melted down the cases, and I cringe because I know from the dials what some of those watches were. Anyway, it makes it hard to get a fix on "how many" of any particular watch brand has survived.

Lastly, high production numbers mean that a watch was popular back then. Many of the things that made a watch popular then, still make them popular now, which explains why a Hamilton Brock is as expensive today as they are. There are tons around, but they are still a nice, conservative solid gold Hamilton.

In some cases, this isn't true. Your Gruen drivers watch is rare and collectible today largely because it was a commercial flop in the '30s. There weren't that many sold, so they are rare today. BUT, I do see more of them than many of the less valuable, simpler watches.

And no, to answer your main question, I don't know any total production numbers for Gruen. I'm basing these opinions on what I've seen, and what I've read in contemporary literature and advertising.

Perhaps Bruce will know more definite numbers...

Regards,

Cary