Hello all, this is my first posting on the wristwatch forum, usually I am on the Military watch section. I have a question that maybe can be answered. I just acquired a West End Watch Company trench watch. This watch has a Longines movement serial number 3716559. According to the on-line resources the date of manufacture of the movement is 1918-1919. I am a collector of WW1 trench watches and doing the research before the sale this confirmed to me to be of the WW1 era, so I made the purchase.

I did end up contacting the Longines Archives and Documentation department about my watch and if there was any more information they could give me. What they stated was this:

It is a 17 jewel 13.33Z caliber movement and it was “invoiced” on November 29th 1925 to the West End Watch Co. India.

There seems to be a gap of time between the movement manufacture and the “invoice” date. This could mean a few different things:

1. The online resources for dating Longines movements are wrong OR
2. The Longines Archives and Documentation Division is wrong OR
3. The movement was made in 1918-19 and sat for 7 years until that specific caliber was needed for a watch company.
I think the last choice is the best explanation for this dating gap. Can I have some more ideas or confirmation on my thinking on this problem. I will attempt to attach some photos but I have had issues with attachments on this forum. Thank you for you ideas. I would love to hear as many ideas as possible

Movement

West End Watch Co. movment stamped

Also can anyone give me more information on this caliber of movement and between what dates it was produced? I would love any imput on this watch. Thanks again.

Michael, that's a nifty looking watch. What caught my eye is the sweep second hand on a 1918-1919 movement.

No help here!

Wayne

Hello Wayne, Thanks for the compliment. Yes I love the second hand on this watch. It is a little rare for the movement age. I was doing a little research and the 13.33Z caliber was one of Longines better movements of the time and was a chronograph. This watch is not a chronograph but was used for taking blood pressures, the center sweep hand was needed to get accurate readings. If anyone knows any different or knows more information about this movement and or watch please add your posts!!! PLEASE!

I wrote about the West End Watch Co. on the military timepieces forum:

https://ihc185.infopop.cc/eve/f...=418109307#418109307

West End sold a wide veriety of watches in India, and they tended to advertise watches for people in the military. The red cross on the dial suggests your watch was intended for use by physicians and those in the medical field.

It's a rather nice old wire lug watch. Such wristwatches continued to be popular in WWII.

For what it's worth, in my opinion, given the long association of west End with the Indian Military, this post would be of interest to members of the military timepieces forum.

Nice looking watch.And if the movement was made in 1918 that is early for a sweep second hand.

I agree it is a nice looking watch from many perspectives.

My tendency would be to say that the on-line references to dating Longines movements are more likely to be incorrect rather than what the Longines company told you was in their actual records for that particular serial number. Also, I have found a number of inconsistencies among on-line references for many manufacturers and so I always take them to be somewhat notional unless there is consensus on a particular source being accurate. Given your detailed response from the manufacturer I would put my trust in that to start. Then I would look at the overall form of the watch to see if that jibes with one date or another. The shape of the case, the design of the dial markings, and especially the sweep second hand says 1920s to me more than it does 1918/1919. Of course that is purely subjective but I have seen a lot of wrist watches and so I base it on my personal experience. Others may see it otherwise of course.

Finally, if it is indeed 1918/1919 and if you are looking for WW I era wristwatches then you would want to find out for sure which year it is - 1918 or 1919. The reason is the war ended on November 11, 1918 so if it was made in 1919 then it would be post war.

Well, all the online charts have it at 1918. Some give gapped dates between 1918 and 1919. So to be a general estimate I stated 1918-19. But is it possible to have a movement made and used years later? I have a Waltham example of the movement made in 1912 and the Dennison case company stamping it in 1915. That is a 3 yr difference or it could just be 14 month differnce to be technical. I guess we will never know. Thank you for your input and information. Can anyone give me more information on the Longines 13.33z movement?

I have found that anything is possible with watches, but one of those things to consider is that over the decades, sometimes movements or cases have sometimes been replaced or switched. This seems to be perhaps slightly more commonly seen in things like military issue timepieces since the militaries had their own units of watchmakers and clockmakers who maintained their military's timepieces for decades worth of service before the timepieces found their way into private hands. I have no idea if this is what is going on with your particular watch but it is always a possibility that needs to be considered especially when there seems to be a discrepancy in likely dates for major parts such as movements and cases and dials, etc.

Well in the letter from Longines Mr. Krebs did mention that my movement was made "some years earlier and then went to West End" A tip might be when they stopped making that 13.33z movement. If anyone knows more about that movement and the years it was made it could be helpful. FD

I have seen "wire lug" watches with private inscriptions engraved and dated as late as the 1930's. From these observations, I don't think a wire lug case would be out of place in 1925.