Here is a pretty good-looking watch I picked up a couple of weeks ago.

It is a 1928 Hamilton Oval in solid 14K gold with engraved bezel. This watch cost $87.00 when brand new in 1928, and it was apparently too expensive to be a great seller, as production records show that only 164 were made.

Another view.

Bryan is well aware of my weakness for the Hamilton Oval. The solid green gold engraved is pictured below...one of 109 made.

Hi Everyone:

It's funny that there would be a post today about Ovals as I was just taking to Bryan about Ovals this morning. We were discussing the usage of engravings on the lugs. As you can see, some have them and some do not. If everyone that has an Oval could send either Bryan or myself the Fahys serial number for each watch and the 987 serial numbers as well, this would give us a good idea of when the engravings were done - early or later. Also specify if the case is gold or gold-filled and Plain or Engraved.

Below is my favorite (which I bought from Bill) - it's my 14K Oval Engraved Two-tone (all Hamilton two-tones were solid gold). As you can see, it doesn't have the lug engravings however my white gold-filled Plain does and yet the green gold-filled Plain does not.

Regards,

Will

Here is a Green Gold-filled Oval Plain and as you can see, it too does not have the engravings on the lug . . .

Now, here we have a White Gold-filled Oval Plain and as you can see, this one DOES have the engravings on the lug. Apparently it doesn't have to do with solid gold vs gold-filled because Bill's solid gold green Oval Engraved also has the engravings.

We need to figure out if it is a date thing or not. That's why if everyone could send Bryan or I their serial numbers (as requested in my original post) that could potentially answer this conundrum . . .

Oh My Gosh....did I really sell the two tone solid gold engraved oval?

Time for Dr. Cottingham to increase my medication!

(I hope it comes in pill form.....)

Will , look for my email

I know this is almost impossible to answer - but is there a decent estimate of a ratio of remaining watches from the original production, 1 out of 15 ,

I recall seeing somewhere an estimate for some electric watches , dependent on model , a ratio of 1 to 15 , so 100 watches produced around 6-7 remaining.

Any thoughts

Gary

My what pretty watches Sure would like to trade a nice 992b hamilton to one of them ,,

Gary:

Survivability is a very interesting question and one that I've often pondered. I too have heard the 15/1 ratio but I imagine, it can't be that simple. As I see it, there are three major variables to survivability:

Metal Composition
Brand of Watch
Age

Let's look at them more closely:

Metal Composition - The way I figure it, a solid gold non-working watch would not be destroyed as quickly as a non-working gold-filled watch. Who throws out anything gold - (working or not)?

Let's say that Hamilton made 1,000 solid-gold Barrels and 1,000 gold-filled Barrels both in 1927 - I would venture to say that the gold-filled Barrel is probably more rare than the solid gold Barrel even though the solid gold Barrel would probably be more collectable. On the other hand, many pre-depression watches that were solid gold, could likely have been melted down for their gold content so I believe that we can safely assume that general economic factors play a role in survivability.

Brand of Watch - Generally speaking a person would not throw out a non-working stainless steel Rolex but I am certain that countless Timex's and Casio's have made it to the trash basket. Higher quality brands have a greater survival factor than lower quality brands.

Age - Let's take the 15/1 ratio - Surely, there are fewer 30 year-old watches than there are five year-old watches of the same brand and metal composition - and we can carry this further for 70 year-old watches. Subsequently, there has to be a variable formula based on years of age and not just a blanket guesstimate. Also, I believe that the first thirty years are the riskiest for a watch. After thirty years, the watch would fall into the vintage category and the dissipation ratio would not be as steep as it would in its earlier life. Again, few people would simply throw out any 70 year old watch without first checking on its value.

It would take a mathematician and some very complex formulas to come up with a survivability ratio and even than, the margin of error would be too large to predict current vintage watch population with any reliability.

In the interim and the lack of anything more concrete, I suppose a 15/1 ratio would not be considered way out of line for any 50+ year old watch.

Just my thoughts.

Regards,

Will

Will,

Those are some interesting thoughts. From the Pocketwatch side, from one particular brand (South Bend/Studebaker) I know that over 80k different serial numbers have been collected over the last 20yrs. That's a survival ratio of almost 1 in 10, for a not very collected and for a long time a very under-appreciated brand. Not all of these serial numbers belonged to working watches, but I've been told that they were all more or less complete and could be made working. Also, in-line with your observations, the lower quality grade South Bends are harder to find in good working order than the higher quality grades, all things being equal otherwise.

Best regards,

Frank "407" Kusumoto

I thought some might be interested in seeing the following images of a Solid Green Gold Plain Bezel example of the Hamilton Oval.

It isn't quite as rare as the engraved version, but it is still quite rare.

back

Another view

Inside back

movement

Dial

A recent and rare acquisition I thought I'd share in the Oval topic. Mine is smooth all around.

Jay, Thank you so much!

This is magnificent. We know that few, very few Hamilton ovals were produced. The known records suggest that some were solid gold, some gold filled. Some had engraved bezels, and some had plain bezels. A scant few were two tones.

Rumor has it that one or a few were made in Platinum.

Curiously, some had engraved lugs, and some had plain or unengraved lugs.

THis is a mystery.

Yours appears to have unengraved lugs.

This is a REAL mystery.

Our resident early Hamilton Experts, Will Roseman and Bryan Girouard are working on developing a data base about all known examples of the Hamilton Oval, as well as other early "classic" Hamilton's. The hope is to develop a detailed understanding of this amazing watch. This addition can be/will be a fantistic addition.

You are helping this great project.

Can you, at your convenience, tell us more, or show us more, about this particular example. It would be fantastic to have pictures or information about the hallmarks, serial numbers, or pictures of the movement, inside of the back of the case, the inside of the center portion holding the movement, etc.

It would be great to know if this watch is gold or gold filled. If the last 4 numbers of the serial number on the back of the case are stamped on the midsection of the case holding the bezel. It would be great to know if there are any "etched" serial numbers on the inside of the bezel that perhaps match the last 4 numbers of the serial numbers found on the inside of the back of the case.

It is a great deal to ask. Please know that we appreciate any help that you can give us in creating a database of this fantastic information.

Thanks so much for participating in this discussion.

I thought I would bring this up again to see if anything further was discovered regarding the engraved/ non- engraved lugs

It seems to be the same with the New Square and the Barrel, I recently acquired a 14kt Green Square without engraved lugs as opposed to my gold fill with engraved lugs. Additionally,I believe there are catalog/sales material showing pics of the square with engraved lugs on the plain and engraved bezel varieties

I also have seen the same with the New Barrel.

Thanks

Gary

Mine doesn't even have a case or a movement !

Dan

Another oval to add to your lists. GF white engraved lugs #2267754 case #413766